Ye Olde Inn

Two of the most useful articles that I have found over the years around game design, neither explicitly for HeroQuest, but both very useful, with a little tweaking, as guides for Creating HeroQuest Quests or Designing Dungeons if you prefer a little alliteration.

Learning From The Masters: Level Design In The Legend Of Zelda

Can the original Zelda game still have things to teach designers? Activision's Mike Stout (Skylanders) dives back into the 1986 classic to see how Miyamoto handled pathing, challenge ramping, and more.

This is a really great primer and introduction to many important concepts into the world of game design, pretty much all of it can be applied to HeroQuest

The Ultimate Guide to 5 Room Dungeons

5 Room Dungeon is a simple design method to build sessions, adventures and even campaigns that can easily be adapted for use for creating HeroQuest quests

Note: The term "Room" doesn't necessarily refer to an actual room, although it can, be more often a small collection of rooms and corridors, better thought of as a "5-stage dungeon" or "5-area dungeon"

Room One: Entrance And Guardian
Room Two: Puzzle Or Roleplaying Challenge
Room Three: Trick or Setback
Room Four: Climax, Big Battle or Conflict
Room Five: Reward, Revelation, Plot Twist

A note with regards to "Room 2" and its application to HQ. Whilst HQ is obviously a RPG strictly speaking (it is a game where you play a role) it is really a board game with a light touch of RPG so for the Roleplaying challenge aspect I usually think of this as follows.

The Barbarian is your archetypal warrior class, and so he has advantages in most situations in HQ because he is a combat-orientated Hero and combat plays a major part in most situations, so I try and turn this on its head in this stage by trying to create a situation where being the Barbarian doesn't give you advantages or better yet being another hero gives you the edge. Example include a room with a chasm that you have to cross, or trap rooms (or puzzle rooms). By trap rooms I'm not referring to rooms with traps in, but a room that is the trap. Examples include: the garbage compactor scene from Starwars, many examples from Indiana Jones, HeroQuest's Rolling Boulder and many more.

Note: To try and prevent this topic bloating, I would prefer to use examples be taken from specific quests to illustrate points and principles of Quest Design but wider discussions around improvements to the design of specific quests should be done in the relevant area of the forum (but can contain a link back to this topic to give some context around terminology and guidelines)

To try and illustrate the key points of the Level Design Guide above I’ll run through a HeroQuest example using Rescue of Sir Ragnar.

I’ve picked this quest not because it is a particularly good or bad example of level design, just that with the question marks around the wisdom of using “The Trial” as the opening quest for new heroes, I’ve skipped that one so this is the first “solid” quest.

So, first to the theme of the Quest, the mission/objective and background outlined in the Parchment Text and the Quest Notes, this can be summarised as:

• Objective: Find and free Sir Ragnar, get him out the dungeon alive
So before even looking at the Quest Map from a dungeon/level design point of view I would be expecting a critical path from the quest starting point to Ragnar’s holding cell, maybe with an alternative path to the same destination and/or a dead end path at the start of that critical path – to give the players the feeling of exploration and choice

• Upon freeing his lordship, an alarm will sound releasing a load of monsters held in reserve, which will then force a race to the exit, compounded by Sir Ragnar’s slow movement.

Again before looking at the Quest Map from a dungeon/level design point of view I would be expecting a holding/reserve area of 2-3 rooms containing monsters to be positioned sufficiently far off the critical path so they don’t get cleared before Sir Ragnar is found but sufficiently close to the critical path or at least the part of the critical path leading to the exit so that they have the chance of at least threatening to cut off the Hero’s escape.

Now to the map itself.

Entrance/Exit in the centre, cluster of rooms including Sir Ragnar’s cell to the bottom left, cluster of rooms with reserve monsters to the top right away from the cell but similar distance from the exit as the cell – so far so good.

However, from the start there are 5 possible paths open to the Heroes,1 leads to a dead end (not a problem), 1 is the critical path that we would want the Heroes to take, 3 paths lead to the “reserve cluster”, paths that we don’t want the Heroes to take, so leaving aside the decorative dead end that gives a 75% chance that the Heroes will go the wrong way and potentially spoil the ‘alarm’ mechanism that has the potential to make this a great quest.

Then to make matters worse the end of the path to the cell, is hidden behind a secret door, so even if the Heroes do happen to choose the desired path there is a chance that they could miss the secret door and potentially end up wandering down the “reserve cluster” paths by accident.

And to make things even worse the placement of the Goblins in the corridors, the first one will be spotted by the Heroes and will lead them down the wrong path, having dealt with that Goblin will almost inevitably reveal the next one, drawing them even further down the undesired path, and on route to that one reveals a third goblin who also has the potential to draw them down a different but equally undesirable path.

So, what tweaks (I don’t have time, energy or inclination to do a complete redesign) can we make to try and encourage this quest to flow in the right way.

Note: I’m using a graph co-ordinate system below, with the origin (0,0) as the bottom left square on the map with the x-axis horizontally along the bottom of the board, and the y-axis vertically along the sides of the board so (x,y) co-ordinates mean x squares horizontally along the board from the origin at the bottom left corner and y squares up vertically away from the origin square.

1. Replace the secret door between squares (8,5) and (8,6) with a standard door – removing the possibility of the Heroes missing the secret door and ending up back-tracking and wandering into the “reserve cluster”.

2. Replace the standard door between squares (23,9) and (23,10) with a secret door – to discourage Heroes from uncovering that path (and amend the Quest Note for the alarm to include the words “doors including secret doors will open”)

3. Add a new door in between squares (4,5) and (5,5) which will convert the dead-end path into an alternative path leading to the cell.

4. Move Goblin on square (16,6) to (13,0) and Goblin on square (16,12) to (14,6) so that these Goblins can be used to draw Heroes down the desired path.

5. Replace door between squares (15,12) and (15,13) with a secret door

And for the purposes of difficulty ramping (see level design guide above) you could also replace a couple of Orcs in the reserve cluster with a couple of Fimir (or Trolls under HQ Gold), slow moving hard hitting, as that will layer the reserve group better, increasing the perceived threat, that is Goblins – weak but fast are the most likely to threaten to intercept the Heroes, Orcs – stronger but slower – will act as a second wave, Fimir (or Trolls) – even stronger and even slower – will act as a third wave.

Not pulling out the quest book to double check you, but you make some excellent points. On New Year's Eve I played this quest using the companion app (first time actually playing since the'90s, so there were no spoilers) and we managed to clear the entire dungeon before finding Sir Ragnar. The app sounded the ominous alarm horn, said place all the indicated elements on the board, and then did not indicate anything to place. Well, OK then..
In the next quest, I strongly suspect that we did -not- clean out Ulag's entire lair, but even though we found him relatively quickly we were pretty beaten up by the time he was dispatched and so high-tailed it for the exit.
We skipped "The Trial" thanks to my reading on here that playing it first turns some of the other early quests into a bit of a let-down.

Borrowed from another thread Rescue of Sir Ragnar: The anti-climax ??

Zenithfleet wrote:

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:
A quest with an alternative route, a short dead end path, a little ‘maze’ like setup for the first 2-3 rooms, a shortcut perhaps hidden behind a secret door, a couple of side room with a bonus, for example is sufficient to make it feel exploratory, open and non-linear without introducing the problems associated with very non-linear quests.

I can certainly think of some versions of 'non-linearity' that would become tedious. For instance, suppose everyone starts in the middle room and the objective is in one of the four corners, with four separate pathways going directly to the corners in an X shape. That would be a recipe for discontent. Either players stick together and try each of the corners in turn, with lots of dull backtracking if they pick the wrong one (and they probably will) ... or they split up and only one finds the objective, with the others too far away to rush back and join in the fun.

However, a good non-linear HQ quest tends to provide enough interconnections and loops that you can 'go around the block' to reach the objective if you need to, rather than backtracking.

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:For a family game to work it has to be relatively short, probably 60-90 minutes max, towards the lower end for younger players, towards the upper end for the bigger kids (including myself in that, generously), 6 hour marathon games might be great for university students but not so great for family games. There are physiological reasons why films for example are typically around the 90 minute mark and even sport, football (soccer) is probably the most popular game on earth, also lasts 90 minutes and if you design a quest with 6 paths, only 1 being the one that leads to the objective then depending on luck the player may choose the 1 path the first time and result in a much shorter game than intended, maybe 45 minutes plus a little longer wandering around aimless to pad the game out post-objective, or their luck could go the other way and they could try all 5 other paths before they hit the objective room and end up with a 3-hour slog (with parents glancing at watches through and muttering comments about being tired in the morning…). As a kid playing with family, we generally only played the one Quest in a session, but a couple of years later playing with a group of teenagers we generally had 3-hour sessions and covered a couple of Quest back to back. Again, I’m not saying that you can’t make a longer Quest, or a double quest, especially as a grand finale, but that is the exception to the rule and needs to be billed as such, so the time can be planned in.

Fair point. The issue of widely 'swingy' timing is an important one for a family game.

However I think that, again, good HQ non-linear maps don't involve too much of this, because those '5 or so paths' will loop around and join up again at some point--generally at the objective room or exit door. An O shape rather than an X shape.

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:And problems like back-tracking or retracing your steps

Again a little of this is fine and to be encouraged, but having to sweep the whole dungeon again, search and researching the whole length to find a key that you need to open the final door or a secret door that you missed and can’t achieve the objective without it, makes for a long drawn out session, less punchy, less fun.

I have to admit that this can be a problem. The original Doom (on the PC), for instance, had nonlinear mazelike maps. Great fun while you were running around blasting demons with your shotgun. But in practice, many Doom levels had a boring fourth act, when you'd wiped the map clear of monsters but still had no idea where the exit was. You'd have to spend another half hour scouring the empty level for switches you missed to open the way to the end.

This sort of thing may be another reason why first-person shooter games moved more toward a 'cinematic corridor' of set-pieces rather than non-linear mazes. It's easier to control and curate the player's experience that way, just as with a fairground ride.

But the trade-off is that players can often sense when they're being theatrically played to, instead of being allowed to genuinely go off and do their own thing. The freedom to miss something, and spend an annoying extra while looking for it, is one of the things that comes with player freedom to explore. At the very least they'll remember to search more diligently next time. It's one of the things that a game can do that a movie or book generally can't.

(Interestingly, HQ generally avoided requirements to find keys for exit doors, and that sort of thing. I wonder if the designers were worried about the precise problem you point out. Another reason could be that because the game was designed to be played competitively if necessary, giving only one player the ability to 'get to the end' with a key would have been a problem.)

Similarly, as video games have become more widely played by the general public they've tended to become easier. If a game is too frustrating, then some players will give up. But without frustration and challenge, you don't get the real satisfaction of finally overcoming an obstacle or tough boss. You end up with the cliche of 'every participant gets a medal'. It's risk versus reward, but for the game programmers! The designers have to decide whether to risk some players getting fed up, in order to provide the rewards to players who persevere and succeed.

I want to reiterate, though, that 'mostly linear but well disguised' generally works fine as a way to make quests for HQ.

One reservation I have about using Zelda as an example (and indeed the other games I mentioned) is that they're solo experiences. Only one player does all the exploring, fighting, etc. A multiplayer game like HQ may need other design choices. Otherwise you risk only one player taking the lead and exploring while the others tag along. That's why I admire the non-linear, O-shaped layout of many EU base game quests and the lower density/difficulty of monsters. It lets each player wander off on their own if they want to, as if playing their own mini-Zelda dungeon--but eventually loop around back to where they need to be, instead of getting stuck kilometres away down a dead end.

That is a great point about the difference in design for multi-player games than single player games.

Edit: In fact that point is so important that I’m going to give it the honour of a quote block just so I don’t forget it!

Zenithfleet wrote:One reservation I have about using Zelda as an example (and indeed the other games I mentioned) is that they're solo experiences. Only one player does all the exploring, fighting, etc. A multiplayer game like HQ may need other design choices. Otherwise you risk only one player taking the lead and exploring while the others tag along. That's why I admire the non-linear, O-shaped layout of many EU base game quests and the lower density/difficulty of monsters. It lets each player wander off on their own if they want to, as if playing their own mini-Zelda dungeon--but eventually loop around back to where they need to be, instead of getting stuck kilometres away down a dead end.

Let's see if we can extract and clarify some terminology and a few principles from this.

Terminology

Critical Path: The shortest path between the start (generally the spiral stairs or wooden entry door although in some Quests the start point is within the dungeon itself) and the location of the Objective of the Quest (the doorway to the room containing the monster you have to kill, the chest containing the item to retrieve, the doorway of the room containing the prisoner to be released) and so on*

*This excludes any shortcuts see below

Alternate Path: A path that leads from a square on the critical path, through an alternative route that is not on the critical path and then returns to the critical path at some point later. The length of alternate paths is calculated by counting squares from the first square off the critical path until the square that puts you back on the critical path.

Shortcut: A short cut is a special type of alternate path in that it is an alternate path that is hidden behind a secret door.

Dead End Path: A path that leads from the critical path to a dead end at which point the heroes have to retrace their steps back to the critical path. The length of a critical path is measured from the first square from the critical path to the end of the dead end and then back to the critical path…” there and back again”.

Return Path: The path leading back from the objective to the dungeon exit. In standard quests this will be the same path as the critical path, but it can vary in Quest where you have to enter at one point, achieve something, and then exit through another point or in other unusual circumstances.

Main Room: A room on the critical path

Alternate Room: A room on an alternate path

Side Room: A room on a dead-end path

Note: I’ll add some examples for illustration later

Some straw man guidelines

Note: I’m expecting these to be challenged!

1. A dead-end path should be limited to no more than 21 squares in length.

2. An alternative path should be limited to no more than 21 squares in length.

3. There should be only 1 alternative path between any two points on the critical path.

4. The objective should not be concealed behind a secret door unless the total area before the secret door is limited 3-4 rooms and/or passage(way)s only.

5. A quest should have at least one dead end path, and at least one alternative path, ideally more otherwise it is too linear.

Another useful resource for ideas for HQ Quest Creation is HeroQuest: A Notch Above by: Carl Forhan

Note: This is already hosted on this forum but you may have missed it as it is listed under "Rules"

To aid these discussions I've realised it might help if we had a common way of describing quest maps so here is my first stab at that Navigating the Board

EDIT: I have since adopted the HQ Common Notification System as a way of indicating the squares on the board.