Methodology Of Incorporating New Skill Mechanics

[Gold Bearer]

Original topic altered due to going off track and post spamming.

[Jazzdrummer]

Very nice. One thing I noticed about your assassin is under the hidden blade ability. It now says if your roll a black shield it counts as a hit but not a skull. Are you saying it counts as an automatic hit? I LOVE your Witcher. My wife, son, and I will be continuing our playthrough starting with Kellar's Keep probably tomorrow. I'm going to take your Witcher out for a spin. Very thematic which is always what I look for in character. Nice job.

[Gold Bearer]

Cheers, glad you like him. He's a little bit wasted if there's no enemy magicians but he's still got his potion buff rule. Wizards Of Morcar is his quest pack.

No the rewording of the hidden blade is just to tidy up a contradiction, a legendary assassin causes a death strike when no white shields are rolled in the attack and a black skull counts as a hit with the hidden blade so it would be a deathstrike for a legend.

Let me know how the witcher does.

[Jazzdrummer]

Cheers, glad you like him. He's a little bit wasted if there's no enemy magicians but he's still got his potion buff rule. Wizards Of Morcar is his quest pack.

No the rewording of the hidden blade is just to tidy up a contradiction, a legendary assassin causes a death strike when no white shields are rolled in the attack and a black skull counts as a hit with the hidden blade so it would be a deathstrike for a legend.

Let me know how the witcher does.

Ah I gotcha, so essentially the legendary assassin can trigger a death strike as long the dice rolled are either or . So the upgrade is he no longer has to roll all skulls. Any of dice can be black shields as well.

[mitchiemasha]

So that's a Evade: Roll defence dice equal to hits when attacked. I like this idea. Do you then get a defence roll as well? Deathstrike totally overrides multiple BP monsters?

I like some of the extra abilities in the experience but you already know i'm not a fan of the experience done that way. It simply too much do this if that. Personally i prefer it to simply be attached to purchases. Buy another dagger, throw 2. Attach deathstrike to thrown via a piece of equipment. Evade ranged to shoes/artifact.

Actually wait a min. Evade is OP. "if any of them are white shield you evade the attack" that would mean the entire attack, not just that 1 skull/hit you rolled against. So the stronger the enemy the more you are likely to evade. As written, if you mean it that way, it doesn't work.

[Gold Bearer]

Couple of minor alterations to the Witcher, he can't use double handed melee weapons (there's no reason not to if you can't use a shield and it doesn't really suit him) but he gets his reroll against undead as well (they're magic by nature so it works nicely) so he's useful in a lot more situations now.

Ah I gotcha, so essentially the legendary assassin can trigger a death strike as long the dice rolled are either or . So the upgrade is he no longer has to roll all skulls. Any of dice can be black shields as well.

Yep, but black shields still don't count as hits unless it's with the hidden blade.

So that's a Evade: Roll defence dice equal to hits when attacked. I like this idea. Do you then get a defence roll as well?

Yes you get the normal defense roll after. I don't think it's overpowered because normally he'll be dodging one skull attacks and he can't use shields, helmets or armour that gives above two defence dice unless it's special armour that gives three and then other heroes will have special armour that gives four defence dice available, so he has three less defence dice available to balance evasion basically.

Deathstrike totally overrides multiple BP monsters?

Yea, if you roll all skulls (no white shields at legend) and you wound then you insta-kill.

I like some of the extra abilities in the experience but you already know i'm not a fan of the experience done that way. It simply too much do this if that.

It's not done on kills or anything, just quests completed so it's not hard to keep track of. It makes hero deaths more meaningful and you can also do it through a training hall if you want to give them something else to spend their gold on.

I like some of the extra abilities in the experience but you already know i'm not a fan of the experience done that way. It simply too much do this if that. Personally i prefer it to simply be attached to purchases. Buy another dagger, throw 2. Attach deathstrike to thrown via a piece of equipment. Evade ranged to shoes/artifact.

I'm the opposite, I prefer them as skills because it makes heroes a lot more distinctive and characterful. You could make 'skill' items hero specific of course and get a very similar result (feel free if you like them and want to do it that way) but I prefer to put them on the characters themselves, personal preference I suppose.

Actually wait a min. Evade is OP. "if any of them are white shield you evade the attack" that would mean the entire attack, not just that 1 skull/hit you rolled against. So the stronger the enemy the more you are likely to evade. As written, if you mean it that way, it doesn't work.

No it does work, that's the whole idea. The more powerful and potentially damaging the strike, the easier it is to avoid. And like I said, he'll be evading one skull hits more often than not anyway and he needs evasion to be quite effective with those armour restrictions. It's skulls, not attack dice rolled so it should be fine as is.

[mitchiemasha]

No it does work, that's the whole idea. The more powerful and potentially damaging the strike, the easier it is to avoid. And like I said, he'll be evading one skull hits more often than not anyway and he needs evasion to be quite effective with those armour restrictions. It's skulls, not attack dice rolled so it should be fine as is.

Have you play tested it? I'd like to see some one do a statistical analysis of it. Those complex run downs we used to see. It basically means a strong monster is never going to hit him. I do like the idea of clunky heavy blows been easier to avoid but from a lot of unique bosses etc, that's not the case.

It's not done on kills or anything, just quests completed so it's not hard to keep track of. It makes hero deaths more meaningful and you can also do it through a training hall if you want to give them something else to spend their gold on.

It's not the keeping track of it i have an issue of. It's overwhelming players with too much info, especially if there is a lot of character choices and even more so, they're new to the game. That's a lot to fit on a card. It's usually better for the complexity to unfold through out the game, not confuse at the beginning.

What's that saying. Less is more!

[Gold Bearer]

Rerolling now costs 1MP for the Witcher so it's not overpowered.

Have you play tested it? I'd like to see some one do a statistical analysis of it. Those complex run downs we used to see. It basically means a strong monster is never going to hit him. I do like the idea of clunky heavy blows been easier to avoid but from a lot of unique bosses etc, that's not the case.

Jazzdrummer's tested it and said it worked well. It's half of the number of attack dice on average so it shouldn't be OP. Against something like ogres it will be very useful yea, but that's the idea. The assassin is better in defence than other heroes against powerful attacks but weaker against lighter attacks, it's just one extra normal defence effectively against one skull hits. It's also useless against magic so he's quite vulnerable to spells.

It's not the keeping track of it i have an issue of. It's overwhelming players with too much info, especially if there is a lot of character choices and even more so, they're new to the game. That's a lot to fit on a card. It's usually better for the complexity to unfold through out the game, not confuse at the beginning.

What's that saying. Less is more!

Huh? That's exactly what it does, unfolds throughout the game as they complete more quests, they can just have a separate card for advancement skills or just on the back. Attaching skills to items instead of heroes is far more overwhelming because the info is spread out instead of all in one place. Too many heroes isn't an issue, they'll probably only even look at the ones they like the sound of anyway. They could be used as replacements for dead heroes so they're introduced gradually if they're new players. You could even do it blind if you wanted, read out the heroes available and they have to decide who they want.

[mitchiemasha]

it makes heroes a lot more distinctive and characterful.

It can still be done this way, with out making the items character specific. For instance, if a hero picks a simple Assassin skill, say ' equipped daggers thrown for free' this is entirely unique to him, now as he buys more, it increases his unique skill. A normal hero with out that starting skill wouldn't have the same ability, ever! If the player also gave that hero (or it was prebundled, premade that way) with a simple Thief skill 'Search in presence of monsters', he could also retrieve that dagger (thanks to the lost weapons mod) with out clearing the area first.

The beauty in it all is how these can link together and make some lethal combos. Yes, we all love making up these characters but shouldn't we take that as an example. An example that other players might too.

In my experience, people open up more once drawn in but if bombarded at the start... they're completely turned off from the idea. If i was to present such a character card to a new player, it hits them with too many question. The answer of "but you don't need to worry about that yet", never works.

they can just have a separate card for advancement skills or just on the back. Attaching skills to items instead of heroes is far more overwhelming because the info is spread out instead of all in one place. Too many heroes isn't an issue, they'll probably only even look at the ones they like the sound of anyway. They could be used as replacements for dead heroes so they're introduced gradually if they're new players. You could even do it blind if you wanted, read out the heroes available and they have to decide who they want.

Now i could roll with those ideas. Especially not showing them the advancement. On the character sheet it could be wrote. Skills improve... Evade. Death blow etc. But the mechanics aren't show, until they get there.

As for the HUH, obviously it unfolds through out the game. The issue was the overwhelm in text and mechanics at the start. The this if that but only when WTF!

Attaching skills to items instead of heroes is far more overwhelming because the info is spread out instead of all in one place.

Not when it's done in the manner in which i was implying.

[Gold Bearer]

Now i could roll with those ideas. Especially not showing them the advancement. On the character sheet it could be wrote. Skills improve... Evade. Death blow etc. But the mechanics aren't show, until they get there.

As for the HUH, obviously it unfolds through out the game. The issue was the overwhelm in text and mechanics at the start. The this if that but only when WTF!

Yea it depends on your players of course. If they're rpg/hq veterans then sod it, show them everything, they'll probably want to know before they start. If they're new to it just give them the four base heroes and introduce new ones whenever a hero dies and keep any advancement skills secret, you could even do that with experienced players to make it more exiting when they do level up.

Attaching skills to items instead of heroes is far more overwhelming because the info is spread out instead of all in one place.

Not when it's done in the manner in which i was implying.

Yea it would need to be done carefully so heroes can't do things they really shouldn't be able to. Equipped daggers can be thrown for free (I know it was only an example) is far to powerful and could get silly, they only cost 25gp each. The only way I can see that method working is if equipment works differently for different heroes and again, I think that's better kept on the hero skills. But again, just personal preference.