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The Treasure Deck

Discuss card making and cards you have made.

The Treasure Deck

Postby Anderas » April 26th, 2016, 12:42 pm

Hello all,
my next topic is the treasure deck.
There are so many good ideas around treasure cards, that i simply don't want to do the cherry picking that you normally do for a good card deck. I want to use them all.
I also do not want to use any dicing table, ever, anywhere. This is personal. So instead, i think about creative ways of using cards.

But ok, let's start from the beginning:
Image
That's the original treasure deck. No, ok, the original is more beautifull, i admit that. :)
Roughly 50% is good and 50% is bad, symbolized by green and red (sorry mohawk).
It fulfills some functions in a very elegant way: It is a risk to search for a treasure, and the risk gets higher the more the quest progresses. At some point in time, you better stop searching or it will kill you.

Image
That's the treasure deck with all the expansions. There are a lot more good cards now than bad cards, even if some bad cards are added, the add on for the good card is bigger.
It waters down the initial danger, and then the danger ramp up is also slower because there is a higher total of cards.
The effect is not as strong as shown here, because Heroquest simply stopped expanding after a while.

It's really becoming bad if you just add your own cards and combine two or three base game boxes.

Now some of you use a two step process to avoid too much watering, looking more or less like that:
Image

You add a number of cards "take a potion from the potion deck" or "take a scroll card from the scroll card deck", sometimes even "take an artifact from the artifact deck" to the original deck.
Then you take an effort to make the original deck with the distribution and amount of cards you like, for example in my case it would be 22 good and 18 bad cards.
It is quite elegant, because afterwards you can add scrolls and potions and artifacts to your liking, endlessly, without ever watering down the treasure deck.
It also involves near-zero preparation before the game.
I see only two disadvantages: You have two, for some of you even three extra piles of cards on the table. That's a small one as long as these stay the only extra piles.
The big one is: It's not backward compatible. You'd have to reprint all the potion, scroll and artifact treasure cards on new backs, and discard the originals. If you intend to do that anyway, go forward, because then the backward compatibility is not a problem.



For my games, I am thinking of doing that:
Image
What's that?
First, you use only the active cards. The inactive cards wait in the game carton for the next game.

First time you want to use it, you remove all the negative cards from the deck and count them. Then think about how many good cards you want to add.
As said elsewhere, in my games i want to have 18 bad and 22 good cards typically.

Then i mix all the good cards that i have, and add 22 of them to the deck. Mix. That's it, that's the active deck for this evening.
The "inactive" deck goes back to the game carton / Heroquest treasure chest. Discarded cards go back to the inactive treasure deck as well.
Next time i start a game, i mix the inactive cards and refill the active deck until it's forty cards.

Here you have the careful balance between danger level and danger ramp up from the base game, plus downward compatibility, plus all the cards you like to add.
You can even put crazy cards like Treasure Horde with 300 Gold Coins in your deck. Normally, for that, you need a treasure deck with 100 cards or more so that it is not found too often. Bad side effect is that the danger ramp up is watered down.
Here, you just have all cards two or three times according to your liking, but the strong cards only one time. Like that you ensure that it will slumber a long time among the inactive cards before there is finally a game where it will appear once.

The biggest advantage from my point of view is, you can invent and print as many cards as you like, be cleptocreative as you like, you will never water down the danger level or the danger ramp up.
No separate Card decks are necessary - they can all be Treasure Cards.

Though you CAN combine it with an extra deck.



This is the reality, today: I use this for my Play by Post game:
Image
And in a PBP Game, it is of course most practical to do it in Excel:
Excel with treasure makro for Download

For my real-life games, i didn't yet print enough cards and certainly no scroll deck, so i use the original watered down deck with all the expansions... My next project is NOW, to do all the treasure cards i like and use that system as well for the real life. :)

Have fun!


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Re: The Treasure Deck

Postby slev » April 26th, 2016, 1:19 pm

You also need to consider that a larget deck gets "streaky", that is, there is a greater chance of getting a alarger run of good or bad cards.

Further, if you are adding a LOT of extra cards, you effectively have to re-make all the cards anyhoo, so may as well use the split deck system.

It's also not just good/bad. There needs to be a certain ammount of money, healing, etc in the good, otherwise it spanners with the ballence.

Realistically, you need to have:
Healing (potions of healing, etc)
Money & valuables (gold, gem, jewels, etc)
Defensive treasure (Potion of magical defence, potion of resilience, etc)
Other treasure (Potion of Speed, ELven Cloak of Passage, etc)

And have them in the right proportion.

For bad cards you have:
Traps (anything that simply takes a BP/MP)
Wandering Monsters
Other strangeness (rust, nothing, etc)


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Re: The Treasure Deck

Postby Anderas » April 26th, 2016, 1:36 pm

Yeah you'really right. If you put weight on the good proportion of everything, you'll have to hand-choose every single card. My inactive treasure deck can produce a quest full of potions and another quest with gold only.
That's ok for my taste, but I understand that this is not everybody's taste.
Nothing and Casket and such stuff are on the good side in my system, that's why you have four more "good" cards than bad cards.


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Re: The Treasure Deck

Postby cynthialee » April 26th, 2016, 3:56 pm

Some good ideas here.

The way I handle it is I have printed off a number of equipment, magic items, and artifacts as treasure cards and inserted a number of extra hazards.
Before we play I go through the treasure deck and stack the deck so to speak, so that there are no streaks of good or bad. The deck stack is to prevent the situation where we had a massive string of hazards. So bad the players wouldn't loot the dungeons. They just came to look for the guy they needed to kill, or rescue or the quest objective. After that fiasco I got my players to start looting again by promising to stack the deck so they didn't have multiple hazards in a row ever again.
When I build the treasure deck for the game, I take into consideration the power level of the heroes and progression. If a card doesn't fit the theme of the current dungeon, it is pealed out of the deck.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: The Treasure Deck

Postby QorDaq » April 26th, 2016, 4:06 pm

I like your analysis Anderas, and I also see the point that Slev is making here.

For myself, over the years when I have fantasized about rebuilding my HQ card collection, I have typically imagined creating the multiple draw decks you describe with your "Yellow Coding". In this case I would make sure that each of the special draw decks, (Potion, Scroll, etc.), would have their own distribution of so-called; good, bad, and neutral cards. However, one of the things that usually trips me up is that while I like the idea of a potion deck, ultimately there is a disconnect with potions in that some cards force you to drink while others do not.

e.g. Poison. The text states that you simply drink it. While other helpful potions don't force you to use it right away.

Back in the day, I had a table that listed a bunch of different colors of potions, some quite similar, that had various effects. Anytime a player drew a treasure card that had any sort of liquid/ potion on it, we'd ignore the text and roll on the table. The character would not know what the potion would do until they either drank it or had it identified somehow.

Now, in that case, I do understand that you wish to stay away from tables and rolling for outcomes, so clearly that would not work for you. But I wonder if similar ideas could not be built into the decks themselves?

Regardless, the point is, with multiple draw decks which can include a wide range of possible items/ effects, I think the EWP can more intentionally create decks for a given quest that match or support the theme of the mission while still including plenty of randomness. And if each of those draw decks are balanced well, then your potential variety of outcomes would be good without overburdening any one deck with too much win (or fail).

Neither here nor there really, just what occurred to me while reading your post.

Great discussion topic frankly.

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Re: The Treasure Deck

Postby knightkrawler » April 26th, 2016, 5:13 pm

Have you seen how I go about this, with my three treasure decks?
First search in a room - 55% gold cards (smaller sums of gold), 35% bad cards, 10% potions etc.; quest treasure/artefacts are found through this, replacing the card draw.
Second search in a room - 40% gold cards (larger sums of gold), 45% bad cards, 15% potions etc.
Furniture search - 20% gold cards (smaller sums of gold/many dice-roll determined amounts), 40% bad cards, 40% potions etc.

The final percentages probably need tweaking, but it's roughly there, intended for the heroes wanting to make that second search,
and for general balancing against early maxing out and shitloads of potion cards around the group.
Some potions (called tonics) lose their effect if they're not used during the quest they're found in, but that's beside the point for this topic.
Of course, this system lends itself to the EWP'sw tweaking of rewards for a given quest; the notes could say, for example, "When a room is searched for treasure the first time, the card is drawn from the Second Search instead of the First search deck." or something similar.

I like your analysis and the assessment and the tactics, Anderas. I have thought about it in the past, because it really offers itself, and it's going to be my go-to alternative, should my way not be balanced.
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Re: The Treasure Deck

Postby Anderas » August 20th, 2016, 5:46 am

Ok, i was going forward now and ordered a big, big treasure deck.

I will have separated Spell Scrolls and Artifacts, but you will find potions directly in the treasure deck. There will be an extra potion deck if you want to buy some between the quests.

My treasure deck consists now of:
* Gold Cards
* Special Cards (Casket, Nothing)
* Potion Cards
* Some Equipment cards (the less valuables like Cane or Dagger... it's just gold in another package. May come in handy, though :) )
* Some lower artifact cards, plus one card "Draw one card from the artifact deck"
* Some Spell scroll reference cards ("Draw one card from the spell scroll deck")

It's a massive deck of around 200 cards, because the less valuables are in there 3 or 4 times, while the jackpot is in there only one time (things like treasure hoard, or "Draw one card from the artifact deck").
To avoid getting Storyline Artifacts ahead of time, they will get an additional symbol, "Relic". Those can't be found in the treasure deck. Others which are valuable but rare, like Borin's Armor, you can get there.

I go with one of my proposals up there, so i have 20 hazards and WM's, and then i add randomly 30 of the other cards. Like i did it for my PBP Game, but this time in the real world.

To be tested soon! :)


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Re: The Treasure Deck

Postby knightkrawler » August 20th, 2016, 7:22 am

Seeeemilar to my decks.
I like your thinking.
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Re: The Treasure Deck

Postby Big Bene » August 21st, 2016, 3:17 am

Anderas wrote:You add a number of cards "take a potion from the potion deck" or "take a scroll card from the scroll card deck", sometimes even "take an artifact from the artifact deck" to the original deck.
Then you take an effort to make the original deck with the distribution and amount of cards you like, for example in my case it would be 22 good and 18 bad cards.

Consequentely, you would in the end only need a main treasure deck of two cards:
- "Take a card from the good deck"
- "Take a card from the bad deck"
(Or, if you want to keep a 22:18 ratio, eleven "take a good" and nine "take a bad" cards would be enough).
Of course, this is only a thought experiment, it wouldn't work in a real game. But why? Maybe this question could give us some insight in the mathematics involved here.

Anderas wrote:The big one is: It's not backward compatible. You'd have to reprint all the potion, scroll and artifact treasure cards on new backs, and discard the originals.

No, you could make new cards for the primary deck (from which the players draw when searching a room), and still use the original cards in the secondary decks (the potion deck etc.). Only necessary adjustment would be that you would also have to make new "primary" cards for the "bad" events.

Anderas wrote:First, you use only the active cards. The inactive cards wait in the game carton for the next game.

...

The biggest advantage from my point of view is, you can invent and print as many cards as you like, be cleptocreative as you like, you will never water down the danger level or the danger ramp up.

Well, that's a good solution, but the drawback it that it only works if you play on a regular basis. It all evens out in the long run, but for this to work, there has to be a long run. If you are not so lucky to have a regular HQ group, but can only play casually with changing players, you will more often than not end up with a very unbalanced deck, with no chance to make up for it later.


As a sidenote: I'm working on a searching system with separate decks for empty rooms, furniture, and looting.
Have a look ;)


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Re: The Treasure Deck

Postby Anderas » August 22nd, 2016, 2:28 am

Consequentely, you would in the end only need a main treasure deck of two cards:
- "Take a card from the good deck"
- "Take a card from the bad deck"
(Or, if you want to keep a 22:18 ratio, eleven "take a good" and nine "take a bad" cards would be enough).
Of course, this is only a thought experiment, it wouldn't work in a real game. But why? Maybe this question could give us some insight in the mathematics involved here.


Having an extra potions or scroll deck allows to have free access to the cards for buying or selling. Some prefer this. I was thinking long about this because especially people with long term campaigns like Sjeng did this, so apparently it is practical.

That I included the cards directly into the treasure deck and the scrolls not, is a choice of pure personal taste.


Your point that my treasure deck might be imbalanced is true. Today I play only occasionally, but I hope that my personal system ramps up the interest for a while so that I get to play more regularly.


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