Chaos Gifts/Mutations/Etc

[Gold Bearer]

At the start of each Hero or Monster's turn, that figures controller rolls 1 Red Die. On a 6 that figure suffers a mutation due to the effects of the nearby source of Chaos.

Black shield.

At the end of every Quest/Encounter an afflicted Hero may roll 1 Red Die. If a 5 or 6 is rolled, that Hero may choose 1 Chaos Gift to remove.

White shield.

I think some of the gifts should be a buff and some should be a harmful, for both heroes and monsters but some should be more of a buff for monsters and more of a hindrance for heroes as suggested. That way there's randomness for both but in general it's better for the monsters. I'd also add an MP test to some of them to change the outcome. MP is nowhere near as useful as BP and it would make sense because MP in HQ tends to be used as magical resistance anyway.

[clmckay]

Haha! Yes....I guess since I grew up with the NA version I default to the 5/6.

I'm reworking the cards and will probably upload the revised set (with some new ones) this afternoon. They "feel" much better to me now. The vast majority offer a boon to Monsters and the sameeffect to Heroes but with a drawback. Then there are just 1 or 2 with a only good or only bad effect, regardless of it being a Monster or Hero.

[clmckay]

Updated material. I've mixed the effects of Chaos Gifts in with a second mechanic I've been working on. I think this feels more satisfying in many ways.

Chaos Gifts
When in the presence of a source of great Chaos the Heroes run the risk of suffering mutations and corruption. When a Hero enters a room with a source of Chaos, Zargon will randomly select 1 Chaos Gift card for each monster in the same room as the source. At the start of each Hero's turn, that figures controller rolls 1 Red Die. On a 6 that Hero suffers a mutation due to the effects of the nearby source of Chaos. That Hero's controller draws 1 Chaos Gift Card. That Hero gains the attribute listed on the card. Also, the Hero loses 1 Mind Point due to corruption. A Hero may accumulate more than 1 Chaos Gift. The effects of Chaos Gifts do not end with the quest, but are persistent until removed. At the end of every Quest/Encounter an afflicted Hero may roll 1 Red Die. If a 5 or 6 is rolled, that Hero may choose 1 Chaos Gift to remove. Any Hero afflicted by a Chaos Gift may not enter towns or shops, buy weapons or potions (though he may give money to other Heroes to purchase on his behalf), hire or retain mercenaries, or participate in any encounter that takes place in a town or establishment inside a town. That player may control a generic mercenary or Hero for such Quests or Encounters.

Corrupted by Chaos
If a Hero loses his last Mind Point to a Chaos source, he is considered corrupted by Chaos. A corrupted Hero immediately comes under Zargon's control. If he is later reduced to 0 Body Points by the remaining Heroes, he may be carried back to the entrance of the quest by a Hero and resume play the next quest. If not, then Zargon should play this Hero as a recurring "villain" in each subsequent quest, until the Heroes are able to successfully recover him. The spell scroll "Cure Chaos", if successfully cast, will restore a corrupted Hero to "normal" with full Mind Points restored (and any "gifts" removed). If a Hero is corrupted for more than 1 Quest, the player may control a generic Mercenary on future quests until his Hero is recovered. A corrupted Hero will lose all gold (but not artifacts or equipment) if not recovered in the quest that he became corrupted (He probably gave all that gold to the furtherance of Chaos!)

ChaosGifts-Revised.zip

[cynthialee]

It all just seems like a very big 'screw you' to the players to me.

I understand some of it, but it just seems to go to far.

What exactly is the purpose of Chaos as it is presented in the source material? It does not function at all when applied in thought experiment. "Um excuse me Mr Evil bad dude....why are you evil exactly?" ..."Because Chaos!!! rargh..." True chaos has nothing to do with evil or good. It is just a force of entropy that if taken to the level of 'servitude' then it ceases to be chaos as it is conforming to a paradigm.

True Chaos would have no minions or plans.

We can not say that it is a simple Law verses Lawlessness as there is obviously a chain of command in the legions of Chaos. That there indicates a lawful structure of social governance.

Perhaps the 'agents of Chaos' call the minions of the Empire 'Chaos Warriors and Dark Wizards'? How many times have the Heroes had to defend their Castles and Dungeons from invading Special Forces black ops dudes conducting wet works? As I recall it is always the heroes who are the ones bringing war.

[Big Bene]

The "Chaos vs. Order" theme was brought into the fantasy genre by Michael Moorcock, mainly in the Elrik of Melnibone Saga, and it's original purpose was to be an alternative to the "Good vs. Evil" black-and-white worldview of Tolkien's books.

Chaos in Moorcock's books is still a corrupting force, but the protagonists are very ambigoous. Elrik definitely is a minion of chaos in the beginning, and even when he comes to hate chaos later, and sometimes even fights for the forces of order, he never can fully escape the need to use chaos for himself. There are lords of chaos in these books, and they have minions, but as you said, real armies with chains of command or another form of strongly structured society would be illogical, and therefore there is no such thing with the forces of chaos. Chaos minions are either monsters (animals), egoistic wizards, or people whose mind has been corrupted. The only "society" that embrances chaos is Melnibone (and Pan Tang, who tries to copy the old glory of Melnibone). But Melnibone is not a very well ordered society by any means, it consits basically of the ruling class of chaos wizards, who are extremely individualistic and constantly intrigue against each other, and the masses who are practically slaves to the wizards.

The concept of "chaos" was only very vaguely defined in the HQ rulebooks, but is based on the Warhammer world by the Greed Workshop authors hired by Milton Bradly for that job. Chaos as described in the early Warhammer publications is heavily based on Moorcock, such as with the zone of true chaos in the north of the world, where everything dissolves into curling, ever changing shapes, to the mutations caused by exposition to strong chaos, down to the symbol of chaos, the star of eight arrows.
But then again, this concept is only a cosmetic trick in the case of Warhammer.
In the games, be it the original Warhammer strategy game, the Warhammer roleplaying game or Heroquest, "chaos" is just another word for "evil", the forces of "chaos" are just what the forces of "evil" are at Tolkien. Of course, I use the term "evil" here in the black-and-white mythical sense, not in the sense of any serious real world ethics.
To be fair, they deliver a consistant description. Chaos is not a principle of existance (as in Moorcocks books), but an open door to another dimension that was accidentely created by an ancient race. This dimension is "chaotic" (in the Moorcock sense), but it is an unnatural addition to the world, and the demons who live there and try to conquer the world are really the agressors in the eternal war of chaos vs. order.

So,

[Big Bene]

I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be some benefit the Heroes gain from the cards, but if it was my deck, there would have to be a penalty to go along with it too. Increased strength with a potential to attack fellow Heroes due to Chaos warping their minds, etc.

I think there should be some possible benefits (chaos is random, after all), but the vast majority of effects should be harmfull. The whole concept of adventuring near the realm of chaos is to add an element of creepines.

[knightkrawler]

I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be some benefit the Heroes gain from the cards, but if it was my deck, there would have to be a penalty to go along with it too. Increased strength with a potential to attack fellow Heroes due to Chaos warping their minds, etc.

I think there should be some possible benefits (chaos is random, after all), but the vast majority of effects should be harmfull. The whole concept of adventuring near the realm of chaos is to add an element of creepines.

Of course, items and 'gifts' conveying the chaos moniker best would be those that give you both advantages and disadvantages, somewhere along the lines of plate armor.
Has anybody thought of something that lets you 'buy' two one-time attack dice in exchange for a mind point or something like that?

[cynthialee]

I have read the Eric Of Melnabone stories and I thought that Moorcocks vision of 'Chaos' was way off base and an unworkable attempt to be better than Tolkien.

The entire concept of Chaos as a system is fail. And no 'evil' government sees itself as evil. They may very well be evil, but in their perspective the enemy is the evil one.

Do chaos warriors not love their children? Of course they do. Thus there is some amount of care in their hearts, thus they are not true evil.

Even with the concept of demons and devils the idea of evil for evil sake fails when critically analyzed.

Chaos against Law, Good verses Evil both fail as systems with just a short amount of thought.

[cynthialee]

Now Us versus Them.....THAT works.

It works perfectly and has for an eternity. No need to mess with a gold star winning system of conflict. Merely being 'other' is enough in most human cultures to justify all forms of atrocity.

[Big Bene]

I have read the Eric Of Melnabone stories and I thought that Moorcocks vision of 'Chaos' was way off base and an unworkable attempt to be better than Tolkien.
The entire concept of Chaos as a system is fail.

That's debateable, but as it stands, "chaos" as used in HQ is based on this. "Chaos" as the driving force of the antagonists is mentioned a few times in official HQ material
It's up to you to take it or leave it, or, more precisely, to:
- Use it as intended by the authors
- Find some definition of your own that satisfies you more
- Completely abandon the concept and just ignore these parts of the rules. They are not very essential for actual gameplay.

And no 'evil' government sees itself as evil. They may very well be evil, but in their perspective the enemy is the evil one.
Do chaos warriors not love their children? Of course they do. Thus there is some amount of care in their hearts, thus they are not true evil.
Now Us versus Them.....THAT works.
It works perfectly and has for an eternity. No need to mess with a gold star winning system of conflict. Merely being 'other' is enough in most human cultures to justify all forms of atrocity.

I think you are demanding too much from a fantasy game. Regarding the real world, what you say is very true and everybody should be reminded of it everyday. But fantasy is an escapistic complement to the real world. It's there to be simplistic. If you think every problem though to the last consequence, a fantasy world can't work. It's like discussing the aerodynamics of dragons. If you like the fantasy world of your games as a model of social / ethical dynamics of the real world, that's OK. But there are others who want their world a different way. Perhaps someone interested in martial arts would want to adapt the combat system to be a more "realistic" model of real world mechanics, but to take a breath of all the social problems of the real world by playing in a world with (unrealistic) simplified ethics, where true evil races / people / groups exist without the need to ask "why".
Personally, I'm coming from pen and paper RPG and I like my world in shades of grey, too. But then again, HQ is not a full-fledge RPG by intention. And I have no problem accepting a simplified, even illogical, but inherently working system in a fantasy world.