Ye Olde Inn

I read on wikipedia that the German version of Space Crusade, titled "Star Quest" like some other versions of the game is out there, however it has some different elements.

For instance it says there are Chaos Robots and Zero Time Guns that fire time bubbles and remove enemies from this dimension. I'm intrigued by these changes.

Is there a translation available or would someone be willing to do one? Perhaps what HispaZargon did for Japanese HeroQuest could be done here to preserve the nostalgia for this unique edition?

Or is this just a case of a few word substitutions (like "Sir Manfred" in Italian HeroQuest)?

Anybody know?

Related to this, here are two interesting DakkaDakka's thread 1 and thread 2 about non-killing weapons of german version of Space Crusade and some other differences and speculations...

Additionally, I would like to remember the pictures I posted here. There can be checked that German version aesthetic was also different to the rest of Space Crusade versions, at least the prototype shown there.

Yes. Zero time cannon instead of autocannon.

Black hole blaster instead of, what was it, flamer or plasma gun? I think that was the most stupid. Black holes have a tremendous recoil, speaking about pushing you through three walls like recoil. But then they are so tiny that they likely pass through the target without ever touching more than one or two atoms. But ok, maybe they didn't have worldbuilding.stackexchange.com back in the eighties.

Laser instead of Bolter. Can't see how that debrutalizes or translates the game in any way but ok.

Holo projector instead of rocket launcher.

It is really silly.

The Marines are called "GSG", theoretically for "Galactic protection group" but is in reality also a German special police unit.

So yeah, silly or not (and I've also been informed that the early 40K was much more humorous than the darkly satirical versions the would come later), I'm fascinated to learn more about, thanks for the extra leads! German games had always been heavily censored (much like Japanese games for a period) but for the kids who grew up with those, it was probably more nostalgic for them.

Reading now... I love it! If you are supposed to be peace-keeping space police, it makes sense that you'd have non-lethal options. I was already thinking of missions where you have to take back prisoners or quell a riot or something and you don't necessarily want to slaughter everyone on board who isn't wearing an Imperial uniform.

Srg Alt wrote:Missile Launcher = Holo-Werfer
This weapon would project illusionary foes to confound the aliens in the space hulk. Outnumbered on all sides by those phantasms they would fight them in futile effort until they were exhausted and as a consequence removed from the board.

Assault Cannon/Minigun = Nullzeit-Kanone
This weapon would slow down the aliens in such a way that they no longer posed a threat to anybody in their vicinity. What a way to get removed from the board.

Plasmagun = Black Hole Blaster
This weapon would create a black hole for a short period of time which sucked the aliens into another place/dimension. Unfortunately the writers didn´t realize that being sucked into a black hole would prove fatal for any organism. LOL!

Lascannon = Time-Twister
This weapon would transport the aliens either into the past or the future. Must have been invented by Doc Brown.

Multi-Melta = Fusionskanone
This weapon would melt the feet of the aliens to the space hulk´s floor. Why they wouldn´t pose any danger anymore in such a state is to this day an unsolved enigma...

Conversion Beamer = Degressor
This weapon would alter the alien mind chemistry to become docile, harmless creatures. So instead of running amok they would leave the ship in order to spend their time plucking flowers on a grassy meadow.

Power Glove = Schockhandschuh
This weapon would incapacitate aliens in the same as a taser would. Hope the aliens have strong hearts or else this could prove fatal as well.

Power Sword = K.O.-Schwert
This weapon would knock out aliens like a punch from Mike Tyson. While not necessarily deadly such treatment can still cause concussions and various other ill brain defects later on.

Bolter = Laser
Strangely there wasn´t any satisfying explanation for this weapon provided in the rules.
10/25/2009

First of, all the enemies were summed up under the name of "Robotlings". Genestealers became "clones" and the Necrons became "Androids". The funniest change however was the one about the Space Marines. The iconography in the game was pretty obvious. They were Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and Ultramarines.
But now they've become the GALAXY SAFE GUARD, or GSG for short (which by the way. is also the name for an anti-terror unit in Germany). They now were known as the GSG Tigers, the GSG Musketeers and the GSG-19. But the best part were their weapons. Because the GSG is a special unit formed by the human federation, who now lives in peace and prosperity, they do not kill. That's why the use special non-lethal guns.

The "black hole gun" opens a portal which sucks the enemy robotlings in another dimension where they can't hurt them, while the "null-time cannon" froze time around them. The GSG commanders also had special non-lethal weapons, like the "k.o.-sword".

The "necrons" are called Androids in the US version (Space Crusade) as well (another poster acknowledged this later).

It's okay, if anyone is offended, they can always say the enemy was captured and tortured to death in horrible ways afterward right (though while inspired by 40K, this is it's own game, just like HeroQuest is inspired by but not identical to WHFB 3rd edition)? Anyway, I love this and would even like to see (or make myself if nobody else does) translated cards/booklet plate for them (pity about the photobucket watermarks). The 40K people know and love today wasn't always the same thing, either. Any differences in this game from the NA Space Crusade, I'm curious about.

Necrons didn't exist back in the day. Those were really Chaos Androids.

Necrons were maybe derived by the same design directive - have space undead style miniatures - but really from background point of view, no commonality. Orcs and Necrons are arch enemies ever since Necrons exist in the 40k universe, so, probably since White dwarf 216, December 1997.
But Chaos Androids can peacefully coexist with Orcs and Gretchins.

Conversion Beamer = Degressor
This weapon would alter the alien mind chemistry to become docile, harmless creatures. So instead of running amok they would leave the ship in order to spend their time plucking flowers on a grassy meadow.

Ok it is less lethal but I fail to understand how this is in any way moralic, to change anyone's brain chemistry so that the personality is erased and another personality emerges, no-one could ever explain to me. It is like killing the one person and put a replacement in their stead.
I mean, think knock-out-drugs of today that are put in the drink of someone. This Degressor is a lot worse, the effect is lasting! Plus, it works on machines like the Dreadnought, too!

This might lurch into a philosophical debate (not this thread please!), but a brain damaged individual is still the same individual, even if their personality changes. Just as a child has a different personality than the same as an adult, or as an elderly person or because of disease, (doesn't matter if you believe in a "soul" or not), etc.(granted, I've only a BA in philosophy, so if you outrank me, I bow to your superior wisdom!).

The team was probably directed to make the weapons not outright kill, and they came up with some imaginative solutions!

If I were the leader of the task for to "De-violencify" Star Quest, I'd probably just make all the bad guys into robots. If you want to speak up for AI rights here, maybe they're sent for re-programming (to "cure" the evil programming given them by the Chaos Aliens that sent them in the first place). Robot Ork Space Pirates seems like a winner for me from all angles. Maybe the space marines are robots too? Great! Everybody wins...

My question is, at this time was the Emperor of Space a bed-ridden old man or was he actually in a coma at the time this game was released? (none of this is mentioned in the Space Crusade story text). I figure we run into similar "issues" with Space Crusade vs. 40K just as we did with Warhammer Fantasy Battle (and RPG) with HeroQuest... similar, inspired, loosely based, but not identical.

I own some 40K Orks that I inherited from a family member, but otherwise I have no toes in the (space) water of this sprawling, well beloved franchise, so nobody hit me with any weapons (lethal or non-lethal) please. I actually found a deal on Space Crusade, so it should be in my possession within a few weeks or so...
(and yes, that means mods, mods, mods, mods...)

Electronics and Software here. No philosophy.
I know philosophy mainly as mathematical discipline, and from some great podcasts from sean caroll (physics) where he interviews philosophers.

Many german computer games have only robot enemies. Instead of just thinking about entirely different game concepts that can live without brutality...

Now, here's the question for the philosopher - if a robot has the same number of calculations per second like the human brain and has downloaded all the mind state of a human, all memories and all the stories that human has lived through and is, thanks to his robot arms, legs, eyes and ears, capable to do everything a human wants to do.
Is it then de-brutalized if a player comes and shoots him to pieces?

I love the way the A-Team does it. They shoot a lot in that series, but no-one is ever hit. It's like playing 40k Orcs.

It depends.. if the A.I. is simply a repository of the memories of the person, then destroying them would be like burning all of a person's diaries and books they had written... a tragedy perhaps, but not a murder (as killing the person would be, even if they had forgotten everything and were a blank slate somehow).

Now if the Robot is self aware (a true Artificial Intelligence), regardless of what memories it might have or whether it is made of biological parts or artificial mechanical parts, then killing it would be like killing a human being (Morally speaking), the question then is, is it ever permissible to destroy such a being? There you get into discussions of self defense (including in war or law-enforcement actions) where the destruction of a sentient being may be again, tragic, unfortunate, but permissible under some greater good (protecting other innocent lives jeopardized by this being's exercised freedom to commit violence). Do the robots feel pain? Then that would be a side issue (similar to questions of whether one should take extra measures to avoid unnecessary suffering when putting down a rabid dog for example).

But just avoiding the gory bits to scare the kids (and avoid discussions of the morality of killing in any circumstance in favor of just playing an exciting game)? Yeah, trash the inhuman-looking robots, no problem.

I was just thinking the other day of some show that was full of action but nobody actually was killed, it wasn't the A-Team I was thinking of. Much like other forms of more "mature" content, sometimes it can be overdone. If killing is rare in your story/game, then it can be more impactful when it does happen.

I guess in Space Crusade the basic premise is that Imperial ships are traveling in and out of warp space all the time, but sometimes they disappear... and return all messed up and full of armed alien warriors. So it's presumed that these baddies commandeered the ships, probably after killing the crew, and now pose a threat to the Imperium of Man. So if you wanted to cast the Empire as the bad guys you could say they're xenophobic ethnic cleansers who are invading territory and slaughtering them for no good reason. But that's not in the story. The story is that these guys are basically space pirates and unless you give them the option to surrender, that's that. In the backstory the realm of Chaos is where the Chaos gods (right?) reside, and they are bent on the torture and enslavement of mankind (but not utterly wiping them out, otherwise they'd lose all their power too, right? unless they're utterly insane of course). The question for the storytellers (and players) is how they can hold onto their moral high ground in a war against such savagery... if you try to take it past the basic level of a skirmish board game.

Apologies for the omission of this clip Warning: Treknificient !

Even the NA version of Space Crusade is a much lighter, brighter take on the mythos upon which it is loosely based, obviously. I was looking and the series really became "grimdark" and pessimistic/fatalistic in 2nd edition which came out three years after this. But I suppose there were other installments before that which were heading in that direction. Not being a Warhammer expert (merely a veteran HeroQuest fan), I am learning as I go. I need just enough info to understand these board games and the rest, as far as I'm concerned is homebrewed lore as needed to make new adventures... but it is interesting! I'm going to use some of it in my own cross-over adventure sometime.

I can see the "less than lethal" versions coming in if we're playing with some younger more sensitive players, but more I was thinking in a few custom missions where you are trying to avoid bloodshed but still need to take out the bad guys (hostage rescue, quelling a prison riot, other peacekeeping type missions, taking enemy prisoners). "There's one, set for stun..."

Having robots would be more a flavor thing... we already have a mix of biological and mechanical enemies, but some might fit better with a certain theme. Maybe the robotized versions would have modified abilities or stats compared to the other aliens. Hey there's an idea... like the cybermen in Doctor Who or the robo-ninjas in Mortal Kombat, maybe a plot where they are "converting" people into robots. Tragic, interesting...

And yet, any uniqueness in this German version I think is worthwhile to preserve, whether people use it or not.

We have neural nets that are monitoring and controlling the training and success if other neural nets. I can't stop and always think that might be what a consciousness does in real brains. At the same time some philosophers put the border for consciousness pretty low. And where there is consciousness, there is a being that lives and that you can sometimes copy. Right?


Back to SC!
Ah yes of course it is worthwhile preserving! I tried the German to german-40k translation, it just loses it's appeal and becomes just another 40k stuff game.

Back in the day if first and second edition, I would always imagine it being a part of a battlefleet gothic boarding action and I loved it for that. The following is recounted from 20 years old memory, so it may be wrong:
In Battlefleet Gothic, there are three kinds of munitions: standard broadside, Rockets/Fighters and Space Marine Boarding Pods. The last one were a bad choice in BFG, too expensive and the Marines would take two or three turns until they finally kill shields or engines of the target and then the battle would nearly be over. But I loved it!

I loved imagining that my GSG squad would go aboard to shut down engine or shield, so that the empire could take the pirates down finally.

The single mission I ever created was "go take the shields down. Now get out before you're shot down by the big guns!"

Yeah, the whole thing is an excuse to have man to man (or small squad based) battles, like old style boarding actions during the times of the ancient Greeks, Romans or during the Age of Sail.

Why bother when you can just turn your ship's guns on the space hulk and destroy it? Right... you've got a small craft, where the "slow claw penetrates the shield" and you have to make sure none of the aliens escape to bring reinforcements, etc.

I like your idea. It's that kind of creativity that keeps it fresh. Hero quest by default provided a lot more opportunities for that (searches, traps, etc) so maybe that's why it's had such staying power, not just because of the "lure of more minis" "gateway to warhammer collecting" thing that was pushed hard here.

Sorry to get off topic again, we have a whole forum to discuss such things.