Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Discuss Halls of Durrag-Dol, published in White Dwarf Magazine #134.

Re: Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Postby Daedalus » Tuesday June 25th, 2013 2:03pm

I wouldn't want to sacrifice Body Points--he already loses them quickly with his poor defense. Maybe simply requiring a turn of battle to be spent building up 1 extra Attack die with a beserk rage would be enough of a penalty. Applied to the increased scale of beserkiness you mentioned, a Trollslayer would be missing out on potential attacks and risk missing out on a battle altogether.

Using this kinder limitation, I think another restriction is still needed to keep things in hand. Otherwise, we're talking 8 Attack dice (in 4 turns) with a Trollslayer in chain mail and a helmet weilding a battle axe. That seems too much to me. I would prefer to limit the trade-off to just his two natural Defend dice. Six combat dice is still skulls aplenty which can be obtained by other Heroes with a battle axe and a Potion of Strength. That also means more action for the Trollslayer.

I'm pretty happy with the simpler 1 extra Attack die/ 1 less Defend die, but what I would like to cut out is the need to always declare when a Trollslayer is fighting beserk. Not only should it be his prefered fighting style, it should be his only fighting style. I guess this would rule out a shield for him. The only time I don't think beserk should apply is before he starts attacking. This would include Wandering Monster surprise attacks and ambush traps. Maybe some other forms of traps should also be excluded from beserk, as well as missile attacks before he attacks and most combat dice from EU magic. At these moments he's more about being just a Dwarf with a personality disorder, so he shouldn't lose a Defend die.
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Re: Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Postby mikemacdee » Tuesday June 25th, 2013 6:51pm

Daedalus wrote:what I would like to cut out is the need to always declare when a Trollslayer is fighting beserk. Not only should it be his prefered fighting style, it should be his only fighting style. I guess this would rule out a shield for him.


Then it probably shouldn't be a voluntary stat-swap at all? Suppose the Trollslayer's fighting style forbids the wearing of armor, period (similar to the old D&D barbarian). In exchange, once per turn he can re-roll an attack that landed no hits. Maybe with an additional die if it doesn't seem balanced in the long run.


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Re: Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Postby Daedalus » Wednesday June 26th, 2013 1:26am

That would make him more historical and look cooler, but I'd be afraid to play a character with just 1 or 2 defend dice and only several Body Points. Multiple monsters and high armor monsters with multiple BPs would eat him up. As things stand, I think Kili will have to be fortunate to survive. Not that I see this as a fault of your Quest. A Trollslayer starts out weaker than a Barbarian, after all. He'll need some luck, potions, or equipment to pull him through. It will be fun to see if he can go the distance with the others.

I modeled my HQ Trollslayer as a blend between the HQ Trollslayer and the Henchman article found in The Trollslayer's Oath from WD #138. Both of those included limited armor. My take from those selections is that playing with at least a few Defend dice is necessary for both games. It might be interesting to try your idea out as well, however. You're taking the offense-as-a-defense concept to its limit, which is a cool idea. A playtest should bear that out better than my cautious opinion.

It has occured to me if a Trollslayer is out of battle a few turns working up a beserk fury, then he's not being attacked. That would be a different kind of defense. If the other Heroes could hold the line until he's set, then I imagine he'd punish high armored, multiple Body Point monsters effectively. What I wouldn't want would be a need to reset the beserk again while monsters were still visible to him. That seems like too much waiting it out. [edit]
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Re: Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Postby Daedalus » Wednesday June 26th, 2013 4:34pm

Daedalus wrote:The card would look something like this:

You are the Trollslayer.
You are a fearless warrior,
neglecting defense for a
fierce attack. You may
choose to go beserk for
the duration of a combat,
rolling 1 more Attack Die
in combat, but also rolling
1 less Defend Die.

__________________________________________
_Attack Dice_|_Defend Dice_|_Body_|_Mind_
_____3 ______|______1  _____|___7 __|__3___

Movement...........2 Red Dice
Starting Weapon...Short Sword
Starting Armor.....None
A Trollslayer always shuns Crossbows and Plate
Armor, and he also shuns Shields while beserk.

After playtesting a bit, I think some more simplification could help out:

    You are the Troll Slayer.
    You are a fearless warrior,
    neglecting defense for a
    fierce attack. You go
    beserk when attacking in
    combat, rolling 1 extra
    Attack Die but also 1 less
    Defend Die.

    ____________________________________________
    _Attack Dice_|_Defend Dice_|_  Body  _|_  Mind  _
    ___3 or 2____|___1 or 2  ___|___  7  __|__  3  ___

      Movement...........2 Red Dice
      Starting Weapon...Short Sword
      Starting Armor.....None
      A Troll Slayer never uses
      Crossbows or plate mail.
This version of a Troll Slayer gives up improved trap disarming and 1 combat die in defense while fighting. He also gives up the crossbow and plate mail, two high-end pieces of equipment. He gets an extra combat die when attacking. He also retains his standard combat dice in defense against attacks that occur before he himself can attack. This includes the first attacks of a wandering monster he triggers as well as ranged attacks before he is in battle.

I'm still undecided how to treat a shield. Prohibiting it handicaps the Troll Slayer even further in defense, and I don't know if it is necessary considering all of the other penalties. My problem is it seems thematically strange that he would use equipment that was based around defensive fighting. Later when he can purchase a battle axe, the issue is moot.

After playtesting Kili in The Manse Macbre, I'm of the opinion playability trumps theme. A Trollslayer survives better with a shield. [edit]
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Re: Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Postby Patroclus » Wednesday June 26th, 2013 5:38pm

Daedalus wrote:It has occured to me if a Trollslayer is out of battle a few turns working up a beserk fury, then he's not being attacked. That would be a different kind of defense. If the other Heroes could hold the line until he's set, then I imagine he'd punish high armored, multiple Body Point monsters effectively. What I wouldn't want would be a need to reset the beserk again while monsters were still visible to him. That seems like too much waiting it out.

I like the idea of the “charge” skill though I never imaging it for heroes. I use the charge ability many times for bosses, and if they take a specific amount of damage the charge points are resetting to zero. The good of charging is that the boss release its heavy attacks in waves and not repeatedly which could wipe the party very fast without giving them time to prepare themselves (with potion of healing/ potion of defense, etc), and of course it’s nice for the heroes to attack an enemy with the hope that they will break his massive attack. It is tested and works fine with bosses of many Body points (another tip for the GMs is that if they heroes are overpowered, you can increase the amount of damage for the skill-break easily).

But I like it also as a skill for heroes. It can fit in many skills as a “focus” skill for mages, or a “study shot” for archers.


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Re: Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Postby Daedalus » Thursday June 27th, 2013 4:13pm

How about waiting one turn allows the caster or shooter to ignore an obstucting figure, or ignore an obstructing corner or wall edge if part of the target figure is already visible?
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Re: Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Postby Patroclus » Thursday June 27th, 2013 5:55pm

Daedalus wrote:How about waiting one turn allows the caster or shooter to ignore an obstucting figure, or ignore an obstructing corner or wall edge if part of the target figure is already visible?

In common situations it’s not a big deal to get the line of sight. I used to play the wizard and I go ahead then ask cover when I need some, and in the most cases it’s not a problem. But in a situation where there is a mage and he has tons of minions in front of him, it could be nice to spend my round to get his ass kicked. So, I think it’s a great idea for both skills!

I am keeping some notes from ideas like this and I will make a post with my collection of skills. The most of them are designed for enemies, but they can be used from heroes with almost no changes. Of course I am writing the name of the person who has the main idea for each skill...

The text is as less as possible e.x.:
Focus
Spell caster spends one charge to cast his spell ignoring line of sight. If he takes damage while charging he loses his charge.


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Re: Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Postby Fullork345 » Thursday November 14th, 2013 11:21pm

All interesting stuff, thanks guys!
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Re: Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Postby The Road Warrior » Sunday September 28th, 2014 6:32pm

mikemacdee wrote: Suppose the Trollslayer's fighting style forbids the wearing of armor, period.

Daedalus wrote:I'm still undecided how to treat a shield. Prohibiting it handicaps the Troll Slayer even further in defense, and I don't know if it is necessary considering all of the other penalties. My problem is it seems thematically strange that he would use equipment that was based around defensive fighting. Later when he can purchase a battle axe, the issue is moot.

After playtesting Kili in The Manse Macbre, I'm of the opinion playability trumps theme. A Trollslayer survives better with a shield. [edit]


So I'm adding a trollslayer to my game and I really don't like the idea of him running around with a shield, helmet or chainmail. So I took a little inspiration from WHQ.

WHQ Trollslayer rules wrote:Equipment
Trollslayers do not buy any weapons apart from axes and hammers...

Trollslayers and armour
Trollslayers never ever wear armour, nor do they use shields.

Trollslayer shrine
The Runesmith....agrees to inscribe a rune on your chosen axe:
  • Rune of Strength
  • Rune of Toughness
  • Rune of Rage


So using this as inspiration my trollslayer will have the following base stats:

Trollslayer
MovementAttack DiceDefense DiceBody PointsMind Points
2d62282
  • The Trollslayer may only use Axes and Hammers.
  • Before attacking the Trollslayer always goes berserk rolling one extra combat die in attack and one less combat die in defence. This effect lasts until there are no more monsters visible to the trollslayer.



ImageImageImage

As I use the Uk armoury the trollslayer will need to buy a handaxe before he can add runes to it. He will also need to buy the runes again when he upgrades to a Battle Axe. The bracers are a quest treasure meaning he could max out with the following stats before going berserk.

Trollslayer
MovementAttack DiceDefense DiceBody PointsMind Points
2d65482


I just need to decide how much to charge for the runes. I'm not sure if 100 gold is too cheap. I'm also considering making the berserk effect cumulative each round until no monsters are visible as I like the charging ability discussed earlier.
Last edited by The Road Warrior on Friday October 3rd, 2014 7:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone used KILI THEKKRSSON?

Postby Daedalus » Wednesday October 1st, 2014 10:01pm

I understand your feeling about Trollslayers not using a shield, helmet, or armor. The bracers remind me of the manacles and axe combination of Gotrek.

I'd up the cost of the defensive rune to a lot more than that of a shield because defense is a balancing weakness of Trollslayers, and they don't need to buy expensive armor. I'd also change the attack rune to an artifact--Trollslayers already have a +1 attack bonus when beserk. Purchasing another die of damage puts him above all other Heroes. :2cents:
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