Heroquest for Charity

[wallydubbs]

I did get a chance to speak with Stephen Baker for a moment: he said he hadn't forgotten about my email and still plans to get back to me, which I don't really believe as he has a friendly personality, but probably not the time to actually care.
But we touched on First Light, where e explained what I already know about an alternate beginning from the Game System. He has no information on the potentiality of Wizard's of Morcar, but did tell me of another quest pack he had written that's supposed to be a sequel to First Light.
We also touched on some of the inner workings of names and such from places in HeroQuest lore that aren't quite compatible Warhammer. Baker had apparently written stories when he was younger based on Tolkien's writings and world. Though Baker did work with Games Workshop it wasn't actually him the facilitated the alliance between Hasbro and Games Workshop. Baker had jumped from Games Workshop to Hasbro earlier to discuss prototypes of fantasy games and had already started developing the world and game. Someone who worked with Games Workshop later facilitated the conjunction of the two companies, I can't quite remember his name, Martin Smith or Stevens, I can't be sure. But when they brought him on board many of the location and character names were changed or at least suggested for change.
Baker is still occasionally called on by Hasbro and when he wrote (or writes) new material for HeroQuest he has to be careful to change names that are trademarked by Games Workshop. He said he has a list of names that were included in the original game that needed change. He also talked about ideas he had in his youth which gave rise to a dragon that lived in certain region of his world, that he used in First Light.
When we touched on the original version of HeroQuest dying down he couldn't quite confirm or deny my theory on Hasbro acquisition of Tonka as reasons in the US wouldn't necessarily be the same in the UK. But he did give me a little insight on the flows of gaming businesses. Back during this time before Amazon was around there was company known as Argos that sold HeroQuest products through a catalogue. They were a supply warehouse, didn't have any actual store and kept retail stores going through supply and demand. Back then warehouses like these were on a 6-month schedule for forecasting games that were more or less promising. This actually correlates to modern factory jobs I've had as certain places shut down for a week or two to formulate inventory and sales in the first weeks of August or late December. Some games have a steady sales price every year that varies, this would be games like Shoots & Ladders or Candy Land as the market caters to childhood games that may easily break or brought on to the next generation of children. HeroQuest apparently didn't have this style of longevity. If certain games pass the sales test for 5 years or so they're constantly kept on the market, but HeroQuest is deep-routed in a specific type of genre that has shown decline after 3 years. If the sales aren't constant and decline is shown Argos would move onto the newest batch of games before inevitably discontinuing. We also discussed that possibility of Hasbro doing the same with this version of HeroQuest. The game surprisingly was shown to be more popular than Hasbro expected, but the sales have since started to decline. I championed the idea that perhaps First Light won't sell as well since because they replaced the miniatures with cardboard cutouts. But reason is not always used in the judgement of sales.
One other thing I mentioned to him was the sales of First Light on Target lacking in places like Walmart. He reasoned this off as possible exclusives but couldn't attest to knowing for sure.

[HispaZargon]

Thanks a lot wallydubbs for your event pictures, and of course for the info you got from Mr. Baker.

Really cool to confirm (as many of us already thought) that there are plans, or at least drafts, of an expansion to continue the events of First Light. It is cool because I assume (and I hope) that they will be also compatible with the events happening through the Game System campaign, because both stories are parallel in time.

Interesting to also see that apparently he has no idea about any WoZ release.

About the Games Workshop conversation you had with him, it is not the first time he remarks that he had the Heroquest story already written before the GW/MB approach (see the interview which I participated here). Anyway, good to hear it again!

Love that advertiser. Wow, back-to-back fundraisers for Heroquest fans--who would have guessed? I tried a small donation, but apparently the row 0 option is for residents of Spain. No matter--I'm sure the event will be a big success as indicated by the support that has been lined up.

The Dungeons of Hope event happens this Saturday, so once again, if anyone is interested in attending wallydubbs and Stephen Baker will also be there. It would be nice to have someone to sponsor again. A Stephen Baker-autographed prize could then be made available in a raffle for donating members and the Inn Hero. Hero icons will be again be awarded this year, as well (if we pull this off).

Thanks Daedalus. I have informed to the organizers to see if they can fix it in the website anyway they indicate that you can write just a dot '.' in the address field, or even better writting the address of the foundation:

Fundacion Cadete
Calle Rios Rosas, 36, 1° centro
28003 Madrid

About next weekend's Dungeon Fest event, here is the map of the different areas:

IMG_20241118_213620_030.jpg

[Kurgan]

Thanks wallydubbs for sharing your experience! I have some concerned thoughts about it though and I hope nobody takes this in a negative light...

I did get a chance to speak with Stephen Baker for a moment:

I've never interacted with SB other than emailed him one time and he gave a very kind response back. He seems like a very creative and also humble gent, and the charity spot sounds like it was really great. I think that's awesome that you got to speak with him in person, and I appreciate the things you're reporting he said there. But my reaction is also that I think we should take his comments about a First Light Sequel with a grain of salt for now.

Yes, it's rumor fodder and I love to hear rumors, but if we take it at face value, that directly contradicts what we were told by Doug and Patrick at GenCon back in August.

While it's true that Hasbro could change their plans on a dime for all we know, I think the offhand comments from one (whom I have the utmost respect for) who is a freelance vendor, shouldn't be taken over the duly appointed reps for Avalon Hill speaking at an official event. No disrespect to you or Mr. Baker, but he's not overseeing the franchise day to day like those guys are.

Mr. Baker, again, nothing against him (we owe him a debt of gratitude for the beginnings and its so cool that he still contributes so frequently as he does), may have more freedom to speak about what's going on with HeroQuest and his insights are valuable... I have no doubt when he says he worked on something like that, he really did. But I think we were told in no uncertain terms (not a blanket dismissal like "We have no plans at this time" which could be understood to just mean "No Comment") that they would not be splitting the franchise like that.

That is to say, AH has publicly shot down popular rumors that First Light will be replacing the Game System (that is, that the GS from 2021/2022 will be phased out in favor of this new alternate system). They shot down the idea that the expansions would all be converted to the cardboard format to save money as well. Please don't take this as me seeking to pit any of these pillars of HeroQuest history against one another, far from it, but when it comes to authoritative reporting I'm going to put more stock into what the company men say. As Doug reminded us at the time, consider something a rumor until it's confirmed by official sources. I personally agree with their stated strategy of not trying to divide the fandom with a certain product. It makes a lot more sense to just have it so that anyone can get into the hobby whenever or wherever they want, and they aren't required to own anything but "any" game system to play. Making an expansion that was dependent upon First Light to me would defeat that purpose, and while it's a path they could take, is not one I'd like. Mr. Baker's own plan for the original HeroQuest was a noble one... getting people with little to no exposure to fantasy tabletop adventure gaming (not just wargaming or roleplaying) into the hobby with an affordable and easy box, especially young people, and it's still a good idea. First Light furthers that goal, but not so much a FL sequel that requires it, unless it was something else like a digital follow up.

As an aside, you could say something like those "limited edition" FanRoll dice are a kind of FOMO product that is dividing the franchise, that is even violating AH's own promise NOT to do this kind of exclusive marketing of HQ products after the Guardian Knight debacle. Here I would say perhaps Hasbro has found a "loophole" in that, because these fancy dice in the fancy tins, etc. really are not "new content." There are no new mechanics, or lore here, just re-skinned versions of the combat dice you already have in spades from the other boxes that are widely available (not just the GS now, but several expansions have their own versions of fancy dice, albeit not quite as fancy but far more readable). Splitting the fancy dice off from the boxes they are evoking (this latest set for First Light, while the previous one was for Jungles of Delthrak and the first one was for Rise of the Dread Moon) lets them keep the costs of the boxed games down while also allowing those who want to spend more on dice that opportunity (I don't like that they're limited edition, but still). Back to the main topic...

So while I can fully believe that Stephen, like the rest of the HQ designers, has probably created other material and has ideas for years to come that we haven't seen so far, we have to imagine that a lot of that probably will never see the light of day (pardon the pun) in an official commercial release. I LOVE to see all that stuff, but just because he wrote it, doesn't mean it will be sold. It's a common thing, apparently (Craig Van Ness said as much) that these guys will come up with lots of ideas and concepts, art, drafts, that don't get used. They keep them around because who knows maybe some day it will be the time to dust them off and try it again or use that as a springboard for something else (why let it go to waste if it is usable?).

But the marketing strategy seems to be to get First Light out there to entice people to get into the "hobby" of HeroQuest and start buying more boxes, whether that means just the expansions or the bigger GS. Having a direct sequel to First Light would sabotage that, because then you'd be requiring people to own First Light in order to enjoy this new thing. Whereas before FL has its own stuff yes (which everyone who buys first light can use) but its fully compatible with all existing releases and the GS is not going anywhere.

Now I could see if let's say Mr. Baker's "First Light Sequel" could be released as a free digital pack... put that PDF out on the internet, maybe add it to the Companion App, that's cool. That could entice people to buy First Light in the first place (or just have extra content if they own it already, inspire them to create their own stuff). That I think would be the way to do it. That is IF they use it at all... The trouble there is it seems like they've abandoned the idea of these free digital promo quests. The last one we got was Knightfall to coincide with the release of ROTDM. I miss those, and the animated commercials that Mr. Baker was narrating. Perhaps they've abandoned those due to cuts in staffing and budget? Perhaps they feel that that kind of marketing has served its purpose and is no longer needed? It's a pity, but if they don't release it physically or digitally, we're unlikely to see it. The idea of a HeroQuest "Scrap book" release is awesome to me. I'd love to see the development drafts, sketches, and commentary from the designers showing the history and some of their "cutting room floor" ideas, but as Doug pointed out, something like that takes resources to produce, and they figure most customers would rather have a playable boxed expansion instead of that "spot" being taken up by something that might only appeal to a niche segment of fans. To me it wouldn't take that much to create something like that, we're just talking about a book that would be under $20, not a bunch of plastic sculptures and full color printed cardboard, and it would still have broader appeal than I think they are giving credit for, but I digress. We might never see these ideas Mr. Baker is talking about, otherwise, unless it gets released for free online.

Could future expansions reference things that happened in First Light? Sure. But similarly they've done this with other expansions... Rise of the Dread Moon references MOTM, but yet one doesn't require the other. They don't assume you own both or should be required to own both to enjoy one or the other. Just like you don't have to play the expansions in a specific order, etc.

So while I would love to see new things that Stephen Baker has written or inspired, that's awesome, I don't think we should expect to see a boxed game that is a First Light Sequel.

Another thing I could imagine seeing though is some OTHER kind of alternate game system. Maybe another box that does the same thing First Light does, but it has different adventures inside, maybe sold at a different store. Not required, but yet another variant to get people interested and let them experiment more with what they have.

Still, I don't actually believe that will happen. Instead I just seem them putting First Light out at other stores (after the "Exclusive" deal period with Target ends, whether that's in a few months or a year; rather than "forever") and they continue to stock everything else that was put into retail (with the caveat that Patrick said which was if some set, like say the hero collections, stops selling well enough to justify it, they can roll that content into another box like they did with the Guardian Knight in ROTDM to keep it available in some form for the fans who missed out). And then eventually we could expect to see the existing expansions appearing on store shelves next to First Light, which for some people will be the first time they've ever seen them. Maybe those boxes would get some kind of refresh too, but they wouldn't turn all the plastic minis into cardboard... because the boxes are already pretty small and cheap (the mission of FL is to overcome customer objections to it being too expensive and store requirements that it not take up so much shelf space for long stretches of time) and most people want those plastic figures rather than cardboard, even if they are "unpainted."

So there's my 2 cents, don't let it diminish anything shared in this thread, just feel like we should keep those things in mind.

[wallydubbs]

At no point in anything Kurgan said did I find a point on contention to disagree with. I have little doubt Baker made a sequel quest pack to First Light. When I first met him at a playtest of Where Heroes Dare, he told me than that he had written other Quest Packs besides Prophecy of Telor that Hasbro was sitting on. First Light was probably one of these. Hasbro still has the option to sit on this quest pack as well as Wizard's of Morcar if they so choose.

I understand you can obtain the First Light quests using the Companion App. This is something I haven't done as I'd rather be surprised for when the actual game comes out. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but First Light probably doesn't erase everything that happens in the Game System. It happens during the Game System as an alternate path to Keller's Keep. I don't know, but I'm hoping both First Light and the Game System can happen at the same time without cancelling one another.

If there is a sequel to First Light it doesn't imply that it'll ruin other sequels. Can't Keller's Keep be counted as a sequel to First Light from a story timeline perspective? Aren't all Hero Quest expansions therefore a sequel?
Maybe Hasbro is waiting to see how well First Light sells before deciding to pull the pin. A Quest pack by Stephen Baker might actually have better sales then other quest packs. So maybe Hasbro has no intention now to put out a sequel to First Light, that prospect might be open after they make sales. Or maybe the sequel he speaks of could also be sequel to the Game System. The only conceivable sequel to First Light and not the Game System is a quest pack that would require the reverse side of the board.

In my opinion now having that flip side of the board for a different quest map should be open for discussion.