HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

[Daedalus]

Discussion links:

3. HQ25 - Choose your monsters + stats

• Minotaur
  
  e) Mv:6 At:5 De:5 BP:3 MP:2, charge attack
  a) Mv:6 At:5 De:5 BP:5 MP:1, more here, rage attack
  b) Mv:6 At:4 De:3 BP:2 MP:3, 6 AD goring charge
  c) Mv:7 At:4 De:4 BP:4 MP:3, +2 AD charge attack
  d) Mv:6 At:3+2 De:3 BP:4 MP:2, more here, large--diagonal attacks, 2 attacks vs. 1 defense
  e) Mv:6 At:5 De:5 BP:3 MP:2, 2 extra AD if no Heroes within 3 squares

HQ25 - The great TO-DO list

• Minotaur
  
  f) Mv:6 At:5 De:3 BP:4 MP:2, more here, more here, more here, Instead of attacking normally, a Minotaur may attack two separate Heroes with three Combat Dice each.

HQ25 monster stats and abilities #2 the Beastman

• Minotaur
  
  g) Mv:5 At:5 De:4 BP:4 MP:2, double attack skulls if first move 4 or more squares

Here's the third of 6 polls dealing with the six chosen monsters for the HQ25 Quest Pack. Vote once for stats (lowercase choices), and once for ability (uppercase choices.) You may change your votes. Feel free to express your views and ideas in this topic thread, as later ideas can be added in the placeholder options. @knightkrawler--you need to post a set of stats and possible ability to go with your suggested Attack of 5 or 6.

If you're not sure of the description in an entry, follow the matching-lettered discussion link of this post for a fuller explanation at the original post. The links also indicate original stat and ability matchups intended by the creator.

The Beastman poll should still be considered open, as that monster is strongly related to the Minotaur. As the Minotaur takes shape, you may want to adjust your Beastman votes for a better pairing. Also, members are still invited to vote up to 2 times for an ability (choices P-R) from the Kobold poll.

[Anderas]

Defense dice not being so important, I was chosing by attack dice and BP only. 3 or more BP otherwise it is too fragile, there wère only two choices with sufficient attack dice but still having room for improvement in case of charging: 5 AT, 3 BP or 4 BP. Plus I chose the 3 movement makes 6 At dice option.
I would seriously consider giving him still one BP more totaling 4, but without giving him more AT: so I voted for that option, too.

Movement 6 or 7 is not so important so we could exclude that from the poll. Same with defense dice, you won't see the difference between 4 or 5 defense dice in the game. Except if we let him defend on white shields equalling walruses on blue dice, then suddenly they become important.
I would like 4 blue dice / white shield dice as defense.


Compared to the 4 Attack 2 BP Beastman without counterattack, the 5AT 4BP 4DE Minotaur is really the big brother. Pitting two 4/4 heroes against two of those Beastmen has the same effect like one Minotaur alone has.

Give the Minotaur a shield goblin and the strength goes +50%.
However, for 4/4 heroes the Minotaur wouldn't be as strong as a end monster. It has then the same effect like a room with an Orc and a Fimir has on a newborn group. Impressive, but not "uber".
If the Minotaur shall really be the end monster for a 4/4 group, he needs to be even stronger. Even white shield defense wouldn't be enough - i'd rather go for 5 Body Points if that shall be his function, plus white shield defense in case he has a name. The white shield defense makes him roughly 50% stronger, quite like a shield goblin.
Nothing prevents you from using both, though, and yes, in that case it makes +100% roughly.

[knightkrawler]

I think this is one monster where people should have a clear vision of the miniature to be used beforehand.
There are two versions of Minotaurs out there:
a) the really heavyduty GW style (new plastics). Bulky; would take up two squares. Similar style: Reaper Bones, Avatars of War
b) a slighter frame with a height of 40-50 mm, example: Godslayer Fomorian Gut-Hackers; old metal GW Minotaurs would fit in between those two.

I think a) is not really suitable for a standard HQ board. Putting such a hulk on my 37mm square board doesn't hurt my eye, putting it onto my original board does. It gives you headaches trying to play that way.

So, I'm thinking b) in regards to miniature style.
My stats:
Movement 5, Attack 5, Defend 4, Body 4, Mind 2
Special rule: Immediately after losing at least 1 BP from a hero's attack, the minotaur counter-attacks (hits) with the same number of skulls the hero has rolled. The hero defends normally.

[knightkrawler]

You know what? Those last stats were talking out of my ass. I don't even know if we agreed on the counter-attack thing for the Beastman.
Daedalus, could you post the Kobold and Beastman results here concisely?

[Anderas]

The stats out of your arse are pretty much what I was advertising as Boss Monster. The only difference is your added special ability which easily more than doubles the strength.

I would take your statline, but add the ability plus white shield defense for the named Boss only.

[cynthialee]

The minotaur of legends is so much more powerful than any of the options available here.
A minotaur should have 6+ attack, 6+ defend (defends on ALL shields), movement 8 and harmed only by magic or steel forged by Hephaestus.
The minotaur should be the ONLY monster in a maze as he has eaten all the other monsters.
A mission to the minotaur's lair should be a death sentence for all but maybe 1 survivor. The minotaur should be almost unbeatable.

[knightkrawler]

But we're not talking about the Minotaur, we're talking about the race/people of the minotaurs (or Bullgors, as I call them). Think phenotype as presented in the miniatures available, not the classical Greek mythic - and importantly, unique - creature with a unique lifestory. But maybe a quest writer might come up with an especially powerful Minotaur, boasting a story derived from that with stats such as yours. I do like that idea. I mean, we're playing on a dungeon board; let's make a maze...

Anderas, yes, my statline I do like. The only thing I'm pondering over is giving it only 1 MP, for it to be surprisingly suitable as the wizard's victim (Sleep spell, for instance, or spell sets writers might come up with *hint, hint*).

As I think there should not be more than 2 Minotaurs in a dungeon (or 3, 6 bucks for 2 Reaper Bones models), they are probably not OP at the point they come into play.
As Daedalus has mentioned, it's only later in the quest pack, when some of the heroes have most likely maxed out, that they should be semi-regular monsters (think Ogres in early AtOH quests).
The heaviest monsters should still be characters written up by the quest writers. And there are still Chaos Warriors and such to buff up the elite monster number.

I take back my Special Rule idea for now, so that it will be appropriately different from that of the Beastman.

[Count Mohawk]

Minotaurs are strong and burly. I can't imagine giving them a base Attack score less than 5. Their defenses, however, appear to be up for questioning. I like the spread of 3 Defend / 4 Body, which implies that they're too beefy to fell in a single swing, but aren't all that good at actively defending themselves. You could probably sell me on 4 Defend, but 5 would be a much harder sell (although 5 Def / 3 Body is pretty close to 3 Def / 4 Body in my estimation).

And then abilities! It seems obvious that we want to give him something to help him attack if he gets an ability at all, but anything that outright increases his Attack score is probably overkill. I went with A: "Rage attack", as it seems thematically appropriate that Minotaurs can charge at their victims once they find them. It also means that if the Heroes try to crossbow him from a distance, it had better be a long distance if they want to be safe from his charge.

[Anderas]

Keep it in mind for THE Minotaur.
I thought about the three pack of Minotaurs by GW or four from reaper, in fact. Most of us have enlarged boards.
Ogres mostly appear alone or in groups of two, with rare exceptions, and they have variable BP.

Now imagine the Minotaur appearing with an entourage of two or three Beastmen, or a small horde of Kobolds, or three of them in a room.

For the Boss Minotaur, with white shields and special ability, he still is a victim if the wizard can play with him. So I would give him always a team, and 2 or 3 Mind Points

THE MINOTAUR is a different topic. I would like that one. But with a bigger model. Could be the same, in 72mm size. And I think Cynthia delivered a good description.

[Daedalus]

The poll now contains 2 missing abilities, E and F, and I also added a new ability, G, from this thread.

You know what? Those last stats were talking out of my ass. I don't even know if we agreed on the counter-attack thing for the Beastman.
Daedalus, could you post the Kobold and Beastman results here concisely?

Kobold
o) Mv:9 At:1 De:2 BP:1 MP:1--winner
P) gang-up from 4 adjacent squares--2 votes
Q) gang-up from 4 adjacent squares and 4 diagonal squares (spears)--0 votes
R) gang-up and ranged attack (slings)--0 votes

Beastman
d) Mv:8 At:4 De:2 BP:3 MP:2--1 vote
g) Mv:6 At:3 De:2 BP:2 MP:2--1 vote
i) Mv:7 At:3 De:2 BP:2 MP:2--2 votes
j) Mv:7 At:4 De:2 BP:2 MP:2--2 votes
k) Mv:8 At:4 De:2 BP:4 MP:2--1 vote
D) none (already unique enough as statted)--2 votes
G) +1 AD if no move (heavy attack)--1 vote
H) immediate counter-attack when BP are reduced to 1--3 votes
K) +1 AD for every adjacent Beastman--1 vote