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3. HQ25 - Choose your monsters + stats

Brainstorming topics for the HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Quest Pack.

Re: 3. HQ25 - Choose your monsters + stats

Postby Daedalus » Wednesday July 30th, 2014 10:43pm

Goblin-King wrote:
Kobold Reptilian
M8 | A1 | D1 | BP1 | MP1
Kobolds in a Hero's adjacent squares may combine their attack dice as a single attack.
I agree with M8 for kobolds - M10 is goblins' "special ability". Let the goblins keep this. I say keep the D2 as well.
Disagree with renaming them. Kobolds are fine.

I don't like this type of attack for the special ability. The reason is that several models are used at the same time.
Basically you move a kobold and declare "this one is adding to the shared attack".
Then you move the next and declare his contribution as well. And repeat as needed.
Finally you make the actual attack.

Personally I'd prefer if each model was resolved one at a time.

Good point--I hadn't thought about seperate movement. My main concern is if a group of four Kobolds is a greater threat than 4 Orcs, then too much door-guarding will result. in my opinion, reducing the effect of a Hero's Defend Dice is advantage enough for a monster intended as fodder. How about this altered ability to resolve each Kobold one at a time:

  • A Hero only defends once each turn against adjacent Kobolds.

Goblin-King wrote:
Random spell for cultists in general:
Running a few scenarios through my head I kinda agree that the summoning spells should be removed.
I don't mind summoning, but in a worst case scenario they keep drawing that spell and floods the room with orcs and undead. That would also give them an excuse to run and hide long enough to summon an army.
On the other hand I don't mind the strong spells. Imagine how an actual encounter would go down:

1. Heroes open a door and reveals (what is a realistic number to put in a quest? 3-5?) 4 cultists.
2. Heroes rush in and kill 2 cultists.
3. Cultists draw Cloud of Chaos. Heroes can defend immediately AND on a future turn.
4. I guess at least two heroes are able to roll a 6 in two tries.
5. Two recovered heroes attack cultists and kill one.
6. Repeat step 3-5
7. Cultists are dead.


So maybe some additional monsters get a few free hits in. So what?
This is what makes cultists fun. Easy to kill, but dangerous none the less.
What I'm asking here is: how likely is it that a pack of cultists gets to cast more than 1 spell? More than 2?
The difficulty of cultists can be adjusted by their number rather than making different spell-lists.

Count Mohawk mentioned adding survivability to 2 Cultists by fronting them with 2 Chaos Warriors and furniture. The reliable staying power and offense of Chaos Warriors paired up with the variable threat of Cultist spells needs to be considered more carefully than other standard monster combinations. Unlimited spells led off with Cloud of Chaos and a Summoning spell could easily prove too much. And if those spells can be drawn again... :bites-lip:

There is another way to sidestep the worst-case scenario of Cultists casting multiple Summon Orcs and Summon Undead spells without cutting them that also governs Cultists while paired with bodyguards:

  • Cultists randomly draw a number of spells they may cast equal to their starting number. [Only one spell may be cast by a Cultist group each turn. -edit] (Once cast, a spell is discarded as normal.)
Limiting the spells to a predictable number increases Quest reliability. Two big spells could be very bad for the Heroes, but eventually they should bounce back. More Cultists can be added if you want a better chance for more punishment. The Quest Note section could further limit big or small spells for even more control, but at least the full Chaos spell deck is preserved as the default.

Goblin-King wrote:
Daedalus wrote:Chaos Dwarf
M6 | A3 | D4 | BP2 | MP2
A Chaos Dwarf adjacent to one or more Chaos Dwarves rolls 1 extra combat die in defense.
|_P @ stat change + rewording

Daedalus wrote:Beastman
M7 | A3 | D3 | BP2 | MP2
A Beastman immediately counterattacks when its Body Points are reduced to 1.
I agree with the stat changes.
The special ability is great. I like the other one as well. Tough choice! I won't mind either.
The no-move-but-power-attack makes them a constant danger all the time.
Death struggle on the other hand is guaranteed to trigger even if the beastman is killed on sight.
I would add a clause, something like: Even if it's reduced directly to zero BP the counter attack still triggers (Just more nicely worded).
Not sure if this was how you intended it to work, or if it should only actually trigger if he "survived" a a wounding attack?

I intended the ability to trigger in the latter case where a Beastman "survived" a wounding attack. I want the ability to create a need to avoid counterattacks, but a reward if tactics/luck succeed with a clean kill. I also prefer a Beastman to have an attack slant while remaining a common soldier of Chaos. A guaranteed counterattack puts it further above a Fimir than I'm comfortable utilizing for lower Quests. However, I'm just one opinion. If the counterattack were strengthened, I'd word it this way:

  • A Beastman immediately counterattacks when its Body Points are reduced, even if killed.
.
Last edited by Daedalus on Wednesday January 21st, 2015 4:28pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 3. HQ25 - Choose your monsters + stats

Postby MrBigB » Thursday July 31st, 2014 12:25am

Daedalus wrote:I intended the ability to trigger in the latter case where a Beastman "survived" a wounding attack. I want the ability to create a need to avoid counterattacks, but a reward if tactics/luck succeed with a clean kill. I also prefer a Beastman to have an attack slant while remaining a common soldier of Chaos. A guaranteed counterattack puts it farther above a Fimir than I'm comfortable utilizing for lower Quests. However, I'm just one opinion. If the counterattack were strengthened, I'd word it this way:


Dude you have a great way if explaining your thought process behind a particular play mechanic. Very clear and helpful |_P
As for the Beastmen mechanic, I have no dog in that fight so I'm happy with either version but of the 2, I like first "if the Beastmen survives they get to counter" option. No good scientific reason, just feels right :).
Last edited by Daedalus on Wednesday January 21st, 2015 4:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3. HQ25 - Choose your monsters + stats

Postby Daedalus » Saturday January 24th, 2015 5:09pm

I compiled two indices composed of links for reference of this thread. This post, the first, contains the Chaos index. It includes all HQ 25 Chaos monsters with stats, ability suggestions, and comments (sometimes you need to read down a post for relevant info.) Bolded entries are the six officially-chosen HQ 25 monsters. Underlined entries are general monster types that contain subtypes. Italicized entries are monsters from the Main Game System. Though many entries don't qualify as one of the six agreed-upon monsters, I included them anyway for completeness as they may inspire other uses in the expansion. Definite choices as compiled in Sjeng's table of averaged stats are highlighted in light blue in top positions of the relevant monsters, but they aren't individually linked.

Why bother? My aim is to provide an efficient and logical means for understanding what the community has presented as a whole. A few of other threads contain relevant information that also can be edited in for linking (more to do if this is a go.) From here, polls can be created with just the relevant monster links included between them so that all Inn members can have an informed, equal say in choosing the final form of each of the six HQ 25 monsters. I'd suggest this should be done one monster poll at a time so that a more manageable set of links could be explored and discussed, then move on. Also, supplemental polls can be created to handle the more lengthy choices for monster abilities, such as with Cultists. Editors will reserve the right to make adjustments, as per the Design Document. What do you think?

CHAOS

Last edited by Daedalus on Wednesday December 14th, 2016 1:53pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Grin's Stone Map Played a turn in five (5) Play-by-Post games. Created a Hot Topic. Slain a measly Goblin! Slaughtered an Orc! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy!Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered all eight (8) Game System monsters. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
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Re: 3. HQ25 - Choose your monsters + stats

Postby Daedalus » Saturday January 24th, 2015 5:14pm

I compiled two indices composed of links for reference of this thread. This post, the second, contains the Reptilian index. It includes all HQ 25 Chaos monsters with stats, ability suggestions, and comments (sometimes you need to read down a post for relavant info.) Bolded entries are among the six officially-chosen HQ 25 monsters. Underlined entries are general monster types that contain subtypes. Italicized entries are monsters from the Main Game System. Though many entries don't qualify as one of the six agreed-upon monsters, I included them anyway for completeness as they may inspire other uses in the expansion. Definate choices as compiled in Sjeng's table of averaged stats are highlighted in light blue in top positions of the relavant monsters, but they aren't individually linked.

REPTILIANS

Last edited by Daedalus on Wednesday August 26th, 2015 2:11pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 3. HQ25 - Choose your monsters + stats

Postby gootchute » Sunday February 15th, 2015 11:33pm

How many of each new monster should we design quests around? As in: never have more than four skeletons in a single room because the game only comes with four (unless you own RotWL).

So if this were a physical product it would have these many miniatures:

Chaos Dwarfs = 4 (chaos warrior equivalent)
Beastmen = 3 (fimir like stats)
Minotaurs = 1 or 2 (polar warbear level difficulty?)
Cultists = 6 (no analogue, 6 felt right. The number of miniatures determines upper difficulty of an encounter)
Kobolds = 8 (goblin replacements, but feels like they should be more numerous as there were only 6 goblins in the game)
Basilisks = 1 (gargoyle level scariness)

Are my numbers correct?



*Edit based on Reaper bones miniatures (cheapest available for filling out this quest pack)

Chaos Dwarfs
Image
Image
Both these guys have horned helmets, when painted up with suitably pallid flesh and dark armor they will look quite evil. ($2.29 & 1.99)

Beatmen & Minotaur
Image
Reaper bones 2 has some great looking beastmen and minotaurs, too bad they are not available yet in the online store. An issue of size: those are not in scale with each other & the current Bones Minotaur is 4 squares large.

Cultists
Image
Image
Robes and staves. Perfect. ($2.49 & 2.79)

Kobolds
Image
(3.49 for 6)

Basilisk
Image
Unfortunately this has not been released yet as it is also from the 2nd bones Kickstarter...

I'm estimating $40-50 USD for the whole set once they are all released for individual sale.
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Re: 3. HQ25 - Choose your monsters + stats

Postby Daedalus » Monday March 23rd, 2015 1:30pm

Figure limits have also occurred to me recently. I agree with Gootchute in the post above that we should assign a specific amount of figures for each new monster in the expansion. The benefit of observing figure limits is a practical issue of making the expansion as economically desirable as possible to satisfy the largest audience. A Quest featuring an alarm and 10 Cultists that are placed at once would be a mistake, in my opinion. Quest makers should keep these limits in mind.

Additionally, I think we might want to assign "colors" to our miniatures like the base sets and other expansions that introduce new figures. I'm talking about plastic color sets like how green is reserved for Orcs, Goblins, and Fimirs. The reason is that both the EU and NA rules state if a map calls for a monster type that is already on the board and no longer available, then a suitable replacement of the same color may be substituted when the contents of a new room are placed. Assigning colors to sets of monsters for reference will insure better game-play if a shortage develops during a Quest.

We plan 25 Quests. The 14 Quests of the Game System plus 10 Quests of Kellar's Keep comes to a similar number. That's double the greens, including 6 Fimirs. My suggestions are:

  • 4 gray Cultists (with a group ability that causes # of Cultists-1 BP of damage)
  • 6 gray Beastmen (similar to number of Fimirs)
  • 2 black Minotaurs (no more than 3)
  • 6 gray Chaos Dwarves (similar to number of Fimirs)
  • 8 green Kobolds (similar to Orcs)
  • 2 black Basilisks (no more than 3)
The colors assigned are rough ideas that might be improved upon. I used the black color to keep Minotaurs and Basilisks from serving as overpowered substitutes, but Quest makers wanting to preserve theme should be careful they aren't needed to substitute for each other. Kobolds were made green to substitute easily with Fimirs, though other Goblins and Orcs also work okay for swaps. I judge all Chaos forces fit well together as a gray theme, but M/Z would need to exercise discretion when subtituting between those monsters.
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