Japanese HeroQuest: Rulebook Translation

[Davane]

1.- Bob-Bob & bluesun's great translation called the final part of the rules as 'Expert Rules', well, this translation is correct but in my opinion, it is more correct to call it as 'Advanced Rules' since I think it matches better with the title of the other chapters ('Beginner Rules' and 'Intermediate Rules') and, additionally, 'Expert' sounds like... 'Too-Expert', which does not correspond with the real difficulty associated to the content of this final chapter. What do you prefer, call it 'Expert Rules' or 'Advanced Rules' ?

I'd say the only reason to keep Expert is to maintain a foreign feel to the translation. Since you feel Advanced is a better description, why not go ahead and improve the translation with Advanced, the better English meaning? Games Workshop did.

This is probably why they went with Expert. Advanced HeroQuest is an entirely different rules set, and could cause conflict and confusion. Bear in mind, MB would have known about GW's Advanced HeroQuest as part of the collab, so any use of the term "Advanced" or "Advance" was probably vetoed.

The Advanced Quest edition of HeroQuest (featuring the Dark Company) already caused enough of this type of confusion, especially as people took to reducing "Advanced Quest" to "Advanced," often blissfully unaware that Advanced HeroQuest even existed at that time.

[HispaZargon]

This is probably why they went with Expert. Advanced HeroQuest is an entirely different rules set, and could cause conflict and confusion. Bear in mind, MB would have known about GW's Advanced HeroQuest as part of the collab, so any use of the term "Advanced" or "Advance" was probably vetoed.

The Advanced Quest edition of HeroQuest (featuring the Dark Company) already caused enough of this type of confusion, especially as people took to reducing "Advanced Quest" to "Advanced," often blissfully unaware that Advanced HeroQuest even existed at that time.

Hi. Yeah, 'Advanced' term was used by GW in several confusing ways. Moreover, they used it to indentify the Advanced Quest edition of HQ although its rules were exactly the same as the original version in order to add more confusion, but this also confirms that 'Advanced' was a word used by MB in HeroQuest environment. Additionally, japanese version of HQ has also a quite different rules set than western versions and no confusion could be occur since I don't think anybody will mix both official rules systems, in fact japanese one is a different game so, in the context of translating it, in my opinion, 'Advanced Rules' could have perfectly been the term used by MB at that time in the hypothetical situation of having an official translation of the japanese system (this official version doesn't exist and that's my principal motivation to do this translation work). I think the tria Beginner-Intermediate-Advanced looks nice, they are for example the usual terms used for language learning levels so, why not also consider them for the different levels of rules, isn't it? I think it sounds more natural than 'Expert' so according to all mentioned/discussed I prefer using 'Advanced' word for the translation, it would have probably been the term used by GW/MB in this case instead of Expert.

Note: We have not talk about it yet but of course, I will also use this classification for the Magic levels' indentification in the japanese version, not only for the rules levels.

[HispaZargon]

Well, finally here is the first draft containing all the pages of the rule book for your comments.

Edited message: Previously attached file HQ_Japanese_Rulebook_in_English_v1.0_by_HispaZargon.pdf has an updated version in this post.

These are the main changes I have performed to the last draft:

- Pages #1 and #2: 'Sorcerer's table' name have been changed to 'altar', as discussed.

- Page #8, Diagram 2: The literal translation of the text in the middle of the picture is something like 'Roll obtained' but I instead wrote 'Elf's dice roll' for clarity since the picture shows more miniatures icons.

- Pages #9 and #10: I have changed some 'Attack' and 'Defence' words by 'Attack Power' and 'Defence Power', respectively, which was their meaning in japanese but AerynB and Bob-Bob's translations simplified it by merging all these four terms in just two words ('Attack' and 'Defence'). In my opinion, this simplification was incorrect since these rules treat those terms in a different way. For example, the rules uses 'Attack' if refering to the number of atack dice but it uses 'Attack Power' if refering to the number of rolled skulls. Unfortunately, the first translation called both terms as 'Attack', but now is corrected. I notice this mistake when translating the Glossary since it includes four different entries, two of them had 2 japanese characters (Attack and Defence) and the other two had 3 japanese characters (Attack Power and Defence Power).

- Page #10, Chart 1: I think there was 2 arrows missing in the original chart, so I have included them in the translated version. The texts 'Attack Power' and 'Defence Power' were also written in the chart as mentioned above instead of 'Attack' and 'Defence' where correspond.

- Pages #19 and #20: 'Advanced Rules' chapter has been included. 'Advanced' term has been used instead of 'Expert' through all the document, also for the last Magic level identification.

- Pages #21 and #22: Guidelines for the Demon King has been included. I have writen 'custom quests' instead of 'original quests' in page #21. 'Original' was the adjetive used by AerynB and Bob-Bob's translations but I think 'custom' matches better in this case. Original blank dungeon map has also been cleared a little bit.

- Page #23: Glossary has been included. All the entries included in the translated glossary are the same ones that appear in the original japanese document but, of course they have been re-ordered since our alphabet is different than japanese one. According to this, I have had to change a little bit the format and design of the translated version for commodity but I have tried to preserve the original look as far as posible. Translated TAKARA company bottom label and remark have been also included according to the ideas I already mentioned in this post.

- Page #24: The islands map has been included. A brief remastered version of the original map has been added in order to make it more clear but the texts are exactly the same as the original one.

Please, check it and again if you see something wrong, of course tell me.

Enjoy!


Future pending work: Pages #1 and #4 show a original japanese Character Sheet's picture but I will replace them in a future revision by ones in English once I have translated the sheet. The same happens with the quest book page shown in page #5.

[Davane]

One other argument for the use of Expert over Advanced is the influence of D&D on roleplaying games of the time. D&D was split into two lines that were Basic and Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. At the time, D&D released the "Black Box" version of Basic Dungeons and Dragons, the maps for Zanzer's Dungeon can be found in the gallery as a potential alternative board to HeroQuest. At this time, poster maps and board-game representations of Dungeons and Dragons, typically through the release of the revamped Basic D&D line (now called Revised D&D), were the way of getting people in stores, and this was sold alongside games like HeroQuest. It wouldn't be until the tern of the millenium and 3rd edition, where we would see Dungeons and Dragons become a single unified franchise once again under Wizards of the Coast.

It's worth noting that Basic D&D prior to the revised version went with the B/X and BECMI series. Initially, this was for the Basic and Expert boxed sets of D&D. These would be followed by the Companion, Masters, and Immortals rules for D&D, which would take the game all the way up to 36th level and beyond.

In the meantime, you had Advanced D&D which was it's own rules system. Most of these were rules books, with a few boxed sets, but they were marketed as a lot less "board-gamey" than basic D&D. Already on it's second edition by the time of Heroquest, and even GW tried to market their own Advanced HeroQuest as less of a board game and more of a roleplaying system.

Overall, I think that it would be unlikely that MB would have used the term "Advanced Rules" to avoid any conflict/confusion with GW's AHQ, and TSR's D&D, and the move away from board games that this often represented. Expert was already established as the successor to basic for D&D, and for anyone whom the game was trying to teach, Expert would have more appeal than Advanced in general.

In fact, the fears against using the term "Expert" for being "too-Expert" these days smacks more of anti-intellectualism of the modern world, than it does of being an accurate translation from the time the game was published. A lot of this has to do with "expertise" having been classified as a Weberian form of power, and an "Expert" is someone who possesses Expertise. In the late 80's, early 90's, all sorts of gaming that involved a third party arbiter focused more on authority and expertise, than the more "social contract" gaming we have today. This was the era of Rule 0: "The GM (DM, EW, ect.) makes the rules." Not the current era of Rule -1: "The Player can always leave the table."

This, of course, is all mere semantics, because either way, in this context, they would mean "the complete rules," but I would think that "Expert" is more likely, given the circumstances of the time period, as opposed to current modern sensibilities...

[HispaZargon]

Overall, I think that it would be unlikely that MB would have used the term "Advanced Rules" to avoid any conflict/confusion with GW's AHQ, and TSR's D&D, and the move away from board games that this often represented. Expert was already established as the fact, the fears against using the term "Expert" for being "too-Expert" these days smacks more of anti-intellectualism of the modern world, than it does of being an accurate translation from the time the game was published. A lot of this has to do with "expertise" having been classified as a Weberian form of power, and an "Expert" is someone who possesses Expertise. In the late 80's, early 90's, all sorts of gaming that involved a third party arbiter focused more on authority and expertise, than the more "social contract" gaming we have today. This was the era of Rule 0: "The GM (DM, EW, ect.) makes the rules." Not the current era of Rule -1: "The Player can always leave the table."

This, of course, is all mere semantics, because either way, in this context, they would mean "the complete rules," but I would think that "Expert" is more likely, given the circumstances of the time period, as opposed to current modern sensibilities...

Hi. I understand your opinion, I also lived the 80s and 90s and I quite agree with your thoughts, but I am not so sure that MB would reject the word 'Advanced' in this context since I think there are several details which suggest that Japanese version of the game was redesigned with different philosophy (maybe also by different people) than western ones and they seem to design it as a new boardgame only for Japanese players, staying far away from the Advanced Quest edition or Advanced HQ version being released in EU, morever Japanese edition did not have any quest pack nor revised edition of the game, they only released the basic game, as a unique product so, I guess nobody in Japan would probably care at that time if 'Advanced' could clash with the title of other existing rules or their scope.

Additionally, if we go to a pure translation of Japanese characters, you can see what Google Translator says here:

Screenshot_GoogleTranslator.jpg

Of course, this topic is something opinionable, but I would like to make the most accurate as posible translation and according to the available data and the general agreement I think 'Advanced' is the better choice for the moment.

[iKarith]

Maybe. Then again, wasn't any hint of magic during that period considered fodder for the "panic"? Without getting mired in taboo topics of course. I was just a kid at the time.

It was, but by 1989, the 2nd edition AD&D rules were being published which "cleaned up" AD&D. Gone were demons and demonic imagery, tables to roll what class of hooker you'd encountered, the assassin class had to go, thieves were now "rogues" (thief was still a subclass), and even the tone of the artwork had begun the shift from people terrorized by what they'd encountered to heroes facing a challenge.

They even made a hokey D&D cartoon where kids got trapped in the game (really, that's what they went with to help clean up the image of the game!) and were each given a magic "weapon". (One of them had a shield. None of them ever used a weapon that could inflict actual harm directly on anyone, because BS&P!) It didn't last long, so these kids were left trapped in D&D with no weapons they were allowed to use on the very many monsters and whatnot, so I presume there's some dead kids somewhere in a cavern probably not too far from Waterdeep or something.

[HispaZargon]

Hi everyone,

Here you have the Version 1.1 of my translated Rules of Play of Hero Quest's Japanese Edition. It only adds a couple of last minute minor corrections and updates:

Edited message: Previously attached file HQ_Japanese_Rulebook_in_English_v1.1_by_HispaZargon.pdf has an updated version in this post.

[Davane]

Additionally, if we go to a pure translation of Japanese characters, you can see what Google Translator says here:

Screenshot_GoogleTranslator.jpg

Of course, this topic is something opinionable, but I would like to make the most accurate as possible translation and according to the available data and the general agreement I think 'Advanced' is the better choice for the moment.

More on nitpicky semantics here - you rely on Google Translator to translate the Japanese to English, but in many cases involving languages, it's only a "close interpretation" of the term given things like context. In many cases, a clean retranslation of the translated text won't necessarily result in the original text.

Have you, out of interest, tried translating the English text for "Advanced Rules" or "Expert Rules" back into Japanese? Either way, you seem to have done a good job here, but idle curiousity does make me wonder...

It was, but by 1989, the 2nd edition AD&D rules were being published which "cleaned up" AD&D. Gone were demons and demonic imagery, tables to roll what class of hooker you'd encountered, the assassin class had to go, thieves were now "rogues" (thief was still a subclass), and even the tone of the artwork had begun the shift from people terrorized by what they'd encountered to heroes facing a challenge.

As a point of interest, AD&D 2nd Ed. put all the classes into categories: Warriors, Priests, Rogues, and Wizards. The Rogue category had both the Thief and the Bard classes. So, technically, the Thief was still a class, and would remain a class, right up until they became Rogues in 3rd Edition at the turn of the millenium. This was more to do with organising Non-Weapon Proficiencies than cleaning up the game, which were based on these categories rather than classes.

The classes were still Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger (under Warriors), Clerics, Druids, and Speciality Priests (under Priests), Bards and Thieves (under Rogues), and Mages and Specialist Wizards (under Wizards). Of course, this would also be when "kits" would be launched, muddying things even further...

[HispaZargon]

More on nitpicky semantics here - you rely on Google Translator to translate the Japanese to English, but in many cases involving languages, it's only a "close interpretation" of the term given things like context. In many cases, a clean retranslation of the translated text won't necessarily result in the original text.

Have you, out of interest, tried translating the English text for "Advanced Rules" or "Expert Rules" back into Japanese? Either way, you seem to have done a good job here, but idle curiousity does make me wonder...

Hi, I am not a Japanese speaker but let's go... if we translate "Advanced rules" into Japanese, Google provides these characters 高度なルール, slightly different than the ones written in the original Japanese rulebook (上級ルール). However, if we translate "Expert rules" into Japanese, Google provides these other characters エキスパートルール, which seem to be complete different than the ones written in the original document.

Google_Translator_opposite_translation.jpg

In my opinion these checks are enough to discard the use of 'Expert' instead of 'Advance' since this one again appears to be more close to the exact Japanese meaning, but well, I have investigated a little bit more about the slight character difference detected in the 'Advanced' word translation and I found that somebody already had such doubt here. If you translate the explanation answer (I guess by someone who knows about Japanese language) into Google Translator, you obtain the following:

Goggle_Translator_doubt_answer.jpg

Then, characters 高度な seems to be linked with high level of luxury but 上級 is linked with a kind of high level skill so, again I am quite sure that 'Advanced rules' is the accurate translation in our context.

[iKarith]

Of course, this topic is something opinionable, but I would like to make the most accurate as posible translation and according to the available data and the general agreement I think 'Advanced' is the better choice for the moment.

Translation is ALWAYS an interpretation/approximation. The reason for that is two languages might not necessarily have the precise same meanings for their words, either in terms of their denotation nor their connotation. Worse, these things evolve with time, even within the same language, changing the meaning of things in the minds of those who read them even just a few years later.

Don't sweat it too much. Good is good, perfect doesn't exist.