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Got a crazy idea again!

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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Kurgan » Thursday December 31st, 2020 11:18pm

j_dean80 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
j_dean80 wrote:What about creating the monsters for the HQ25 project.?



I'm pretty sure those miniatures actually got released and are for sale via the original company, so probably not?


Actually HQ25 is an Inn project.


Oooohh, oops. I was confusing it with the GameZone anniversary thing, wasn't I? My apologies! That was before my time here...
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Re: PARDONED!!!!

Postby Davane » Friday January 1st, 2021 12:01am

Kurgan wrote:
Decipher wrote:You're right about 1 thing, you most certainly are NOT a moderator on these forums. And second, maybe you could contribute a little more than 75 posts before you come busting into a thread showing your backside. Right or wrong, legal, not legal, whatever, you sure got a crappy attitude. If Hasbro or Game Workshop has an issue with me, the admin, the forums or anything else, they would have closed these forums down years ago over copyrighted material. If you would have taken the time to read ALL of my posts, I did in fact say that I am interested in producing only brand new miniatures and am willing to make a list from everyone here on the forums. But clearly you were too busy to come in here throwing the weight around that you think you have before reading all of my posts. |_P


Let's face it, this happens in every thread, people will respond to the OP without reading the entire thread first, I've done it myself... we all have. With only 1,223 posts to my name, I agreed with those urging caution. I'm not a moderator either, so you can tell me to take a flying leap, if you want, but a more helpful suggestion I have to offer is just edit the OP and that should prevent further misunderstanding. We're just sharing opinions, which is what one invites when one starts a thread.

The situation now is not how it always was because: 1) Hasbro is actively producing, promoting and selling a new version of their game. 2) interest in HQ is peaking as a result, hence more eyes are going to be on us and our behavior here, 3) We're not just talking about something that exists that people could print on their own, but a product that would be indistinguishable from the original and is proposed for sale. Yes, Hasbro could shut us down (and that would be a sad day)... we're lucky they haven't so far, but why risk that? That was the point. You seem to agree with us that as one who wants to help out the community, this wasn't the way, but you've found a safer, better way now. Nobody is wanting to put you on the torture rack for having ideas here, least of all me! :D


I've thought long and hard about how I wanted to respond to this - but the truth is, people don't know me, and they don't know my attitude. They don't know that I give advice, for free, because it's what I do - that's who I am. My post count doesn't matter - I've been using the resources of the Inn for a LONG time, way before I even started getting involved in these forums, and I don't want to see it go.

I've read THIS thread from the beginning, and been responding from the beginning, so it's somewhat disingenuous to assume that I haven't read the rest of the thread after the OP. I have. The fact is that the impression I got from the OP wasn't the same as Decipher's follow up post. I went back and reread Decipher's original post, just to make sure I hadn't misread it or missed something, and unfortunately, it was NOT clear that Decipher was talking about creating NEW models. Decipher might have evolved his idea to creating original models, which is totally cool and totally legit, but that was NOT what was being expressed in the original post.

Copyright infringement is a touchy subject, but I don't judge, because there are times when copyright infringement is legitimate, and that's what the Fair Use criteria cover.

I will reiterate my advice for Decipher here - kill this thread. Start over with a new thread about creating NEW models. That way, those people who only read the OP before replying won't get confused because Decipher evolved his idea to producing NEW models when the original thread reads more about reproducing the existing models.

It's easy to see why people might be confused over the OP and the change in direction Decipher is going with, and people are going to respond based on the OP. Other people, like myself, are going to talk ABOUT the OP, and Decipher evolving his idea, as these are events that have happened as part of the discussion on this thread. That's how discussions work.

Is it fair to assume that Decipher was suggesting copyright infringement? I believe so. There are a few indicators that Decipher was suggesting copyright infringement. He referred to a previous project - which is copyright infringement. He talks about a process of scanning models, which implies copyright infringement unless Decipher is a sculptor or modeller. Comments about loaning rare miniatures suggests copyright infringement. The language and use of original, all imply copyright infringement. So, I believe it is correct to assume that Decipher's original idea involved copyright infringement - and that puts the Inn at risk.

Now, I didn't state whether I assumed that said copyright infringement was Fair Use or not. I suggested ways that Decipher could clarify his intentions so that they become Fair Use, which would bolster any defence he might need to make in court or other situation where the copyright infringement is examined, such as if Hasbro or GW make such a challenge as a result of the new version of HeroQuest being produced. I also suggested ways that the Inn might protect itself from risks, since if the copyright infringement is deemed not Fair Use, or if the Inn refuses to comply with any DMCA notices to take down threads and/or content, the Inn itself may find itself liable as a co-conspirator and/or enabler.

For the record, I think there are some uses for Decipher's original idea that could count as Fair Use. There's also the risk that the original idea could be used for illegal copyright infringement. If not handled correctly, those risks could affect Decipher and the Inn in an adverse manner.

Kurgan sums up the changing situation of the HeroQuest community quite nicely, but he forgot an important fourth issue: We don't know the future of HeroQuest, Hasbro, or GW. We don't know what they are going to decide in two, five, ten, or twenty five years time. The situation now is not what it was, but there's also a good chance that the situation now will not be as it will be in the future either. What is Fair Use now might not be Fair Use in the future, but likewise, what isn't Fair Use may become Fair Use in the future.

When it comes to reproducing the existing HQ models, I'm pretty sure that GW owns the copyright. But does GW still own the moulds? Do they ever intend to rerelease the models? Do they even have any scans? Fair Use for Archival purposes MAY be the only way these models can be preserved, let alone replaced. But once files are out there, they STAY out there. Model scans for archival purposes can become tomorrow's bootlegs, and it's going to come back to whomever did those first scans, and whomever hosts them.

Ultimately though, it's just advice, because I'm not a moderator here. Nor am I a judge. If this was to end up in court, I doubt my opinion will be called for. But that doesn't mean I can't point out what some of the pitfalls might be based on the little experience I have. I'd argue that Decipher's original idea would be Fair Use, and I'd argue that Decipher's evolved ideas would count as derivative work, if not unique pieces in their own right.

As for this thread - I'd kill it, and request Decipher start over, clearly stating his intention to create new models, so that any confusion over the OP is gone. This would be preferable to simply editing the OP, since people have responded to the confusion, and that creates even more confusion, most of which may no longer be relevant to the discussion. For example, the majority of my comments regarding copyright infringement are irrelevant if Decipher edits the OP to he current version of the idea. Decipher's outburst and Kurgan's response would be irrelevant.

Please don't take this suggestion of killing the thread as implying that Decipher shouldn't be able to talk about his ideas. I am just saying that if the thread is killed, then this aspect of the discussion is closed, and the discussion itself can move on. Else, this thread may end up with people wondering why we've gone from copyright infringement to whether there should be Nipponese Assassin models in HQ...
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Kurgan » Friday January 1st, 2021 1:34am

No hard feelings?
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