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Got a crazy idea again!

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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby lestodante » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 6:59pm

He clearly sayd that he wish to create his own figures to be used with our favourite boardgames and compatible in size and proportions with the ones we love.


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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 7:50pm

With respect, lestodante, the OP wasn't like that. Not everyone reads the whole thread before replying, unfortunately (I'm as guilty as the next person of that sometimes).

He changed his mind, though, and is going to only make brand new creations... not copies of anyone else's work previously released, whether Gamesworkshop or Hasbro. THAT I can drink to. But we were not misunderstanding him when we were raising concerns about copying the miniatures MB/Hasbro sold in the 80's and 90's, initially.

I'm sure THAT idea is not controversial around here. IF he were going to do what he originally wanted to do, then that would probably be something the mods would have a problem with. Hope that made sense. Not trying to fight about it here, I just wanted to be clear.

I would never hate on the idea of creating new fan-based content for Hero Quest, I merely agreed with those who considered the original idea of basically selling high quality bootlegs of the GM minis to be an unnecessary risk to this community.

There are tons of free STL files out there of Dark Elves, Sir Ragnar, Beastmen, Ulag and Grak, Kessandria, Heroes and Monsters holding different weapons or with different armor on, and all the sorts of "classic HQ style" miniatures we talk about on here as "expansions." People have created most anything you could want, the only question is whether you're going to print it yourself or pay somebody else to do it. As for creating brand new things never seen before, and selling them? I say bring it on!
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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Davane » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 9:36pm

Kurgan wrote:With respect, lestodante, the OP wasn't like that. Not everyone reads the whole thread before replying, unfortunately (I'm as guilty as the next person of that sometimes).

He changed his mind, though, and is going to only make brand new creations... not copies of anyone else's work previously released, whether Gamesworkshop or Hasbro. THAT I can drink to. But we were not misunderstanding him when we were raising concerns about copying the miniatures MB/Hasbro sold in the 80's and 90's, initially.

I'm sure THAT idea is not controversial around here. IF he were going to do what he originally wanted to do, then that would probably be something the mods would have a problem with. Hope that made sense. Not trying to fight about it here, I just wanted to be clear.

I would never hate on the idea of creating new fan-based content for Hero Quest, I merely agreed with those who considered the original idea of basically selling high quality bootlegs of the GM minis to be an unnecessary risk to this community.

There are tons of free STL files out there of Dark Elves, Sir Ragnar, Beastmen, Ulag and Grak, Kessandria, Heroes and Monsters holding different weapons or with different armor on, and all the sorts of "classic HQ style" miniatures we talk about on here as "expansions." People have created most anything you could want, the only question is whether you're going to print it yourself or pay somebody else to do it. As for creating brand new things never seen before, and selling them? I say bring it on!


I agree, hence my previously long posts. Most importantly, there are some legitimate Fair Use reasons to copy the original models, but also many not so legitimate ones. At this time when, after being out of production for over three decades, Hasbro is rereleasing HeroQuest, amongst what is going to be a very interesting period regarding copyright and 3d printing, as copyright as a whole is under renewed scrutiny based on a changing, increasingly digital, world. Therefore, it is important to protect the community, and not be so cavalier about incurring the wrath of Hasbro/Games Workshop.

I found that when Decipher changed his mind, I had to recheck the OP to make sure that I hadn't misunderstood it, but looking back, there was little mistake what Decipher's intent was. It was blatant potential copyright theft, although the motivation behind such potential copyright theft was not made clear. There were hints at shared costs, sales, and turning this potential copyright theft into a service or enterprise, which could easily risk Decipher, the HQ community, and the Inn itself facing criminal and financial liabilities if not handled correctly, or for the right reasons.

The fact is that Hasbro's behaviour means that the HeroQuest IP isn't inactive/abandoned, and if Hasbro are wary of treading on GW's toes over HQ miniatures, fans should be doing the same. Doing things "under the radar" doesn't necessarily make them legal, and it's easy to forget that at times. As someone who lost my business over a passion project gone wrong, that was misconstrued as a form of upselling based on IP I didn't own, I don't want others to suffer as I did because they weren't aware of all the consequences or how their actions were being perceived, especially where money is involved.

As a fan, I wish Decipher all the luck in the world regarding whatever passion projects he does with this, because most fan communities wouldn't exist without passion projects sustaining them. As Kurgan says, bring it on!
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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 10:18pm

Yes! Please read what I wrote as caution, not accusation... tough love, not hate. Look forward to seeing these new creations!

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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Pancho » Thursday December 31st, 2020 4:52am

lestodante wrote:He clearly sayd that he wish to create his own figures to be used with our favourite boardgames and compatible in size and proportions with the ones we love.

In the OP he stated that the originals would be scanned by a company in California, and the product would technically be exact duplicates of the originals.
Somewhere down the line it changed into creating new designs, Skaven etc. But there has been no clarification from Decipher so far.
The thread is a bit of a mess, and probably should come down in my opinion.

To clarify from my end, I’m personally OK with the first idea he had - but it shouldn’t be done via the Inn in this way. The concerns of some here seem to be valid.


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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Decipher » Thursday December 31st, 2020 1:46pm

Davane wrote:
whitebeard wrote:
Davane wrote:There's nothing wrong with making completely NEW miniatures. You can merely "recommend" them as being HeroQuest compatible, without actually relying on the brand or anything infringing on IP from either Hasbro or GW.
. . .
In the meantime, be clear about your intentions, provide legitimate mock ups of what you intend to provide, and tread very carefully in what can be a very dangerous minefield these days...


It was pretty clear. He needs the ORIGINAL minis.

Decipher wrote:The process:
Each original figure will be 3D scanned by a company in California. They will send me the 3D mesh CAD prints which I will use to mill a mold to use in a plastic mold injection machine. So, technically, the miniatures should be exact duplicates of the originals other than the color. The best part about it is not only can I do the originals, but I will be able to also make all of the expansion miniatures as long as I can get them 3D scanned. Which some of them I will have to rely on some of you folks here on the forums because I don't have them all. I know its a terrifying idea to loan out a super rare miniature to a stranger.


Decipher wrote:Since the dice has been such a huge hit and a lot of fun offering an actual product to extend the life of the original HeroQuest game, I've toyed around a lot with reproducing the original HeroQuest miniature set. So, pondering with the idea since 2017, I've decided to plunge into it and I am going to give the project a green light. With a little bit of time, personal education and probably a bunch of trial & error, I will be reproducing the entire original miniature set sometime by Fall of 2021 as long as the world doesn't implode. These will not be made in China, these will be made right here in the USA. It's a lot cheaper for me to buy the equipment and make them myself then contract a company to do it, even in China.


Indeed, it is pretty clear that what Decipher intends to do amounts to copyright theft. He wants to scan the original miniatures in order to reproduce them as 3d printed copies.

The ONLY possible legitimate fair use of scanning the minis from the original game would be for archival and preservation purposes.

As such, I would strongly urge that the scanned files be uploaded for free alongside the other components of the games, as the games contents already exist here in an archival format. However, be aware that Hasbro/GW may well request that any such files are removed via a blanket DMCA takedown notice.

I would also strongly urge that Decipher keeps this as a passion project away from these forums. If Decipher wishes to obtain the original minis and copy them for his own purposes, that is down to him. He could even argue that the scans are for archival purposes, and that printing said scans are a way of training himself to use his 3d printer. These are both potential Fair Use claims. A further Fair Use claim might be to photograph and critique such models, most likely as a comparison on 3d printing technology as a means to preserve game components.

What Decipher should NOT do is talk openly about selling or distributing these models to others here on these forums. What individuals arrange between themselves is up to them, but the forum should not be condoning this as any sort of enterprise outside of an academic passion project, and certainly shouldn't be allowing such discussions to continue on the forum in anything other than a hypothetical manner. To do so puts the forum and the community at risk.

IF Decipher is looking at selling miniatures, then they have to be "significantly different" from the original Heroquest miniatures. Copyright only covers exact replicas, but doesn't include derivative works. Thus Decipher COULD scan an original HeroQuest mini to create 3d prints for himself, which he could THEN modify and get rescanned for resale purposes. They should clearly be marked as original works by Decipher, modified from the existing HeroQuest models.

It can often come down to a court ruling on what counts as "significantly different" but one criteria to look for is that a reasonable amount of time and effort has gone into creating a derivative work. So changing poses and altering body/facial features may count, but putting an extra bevel on the base or putting a small notch in the weapon might not. The key criteria would be how easily the derivative work could be mistaken for the original inspiration. The more it looks like a copy, the less chance it will be acceptable as a derivative work.

This is why it's important that the intention is made crystal clear, as to what the purpose and expected outcome of this idea will be, as this will determine whether it's acceptable as fair use, and for what purpose; or if it is to be considered as a derivative work. As it stands, the intention sounds like blatant copyright theft, because the other necessary details that make it NOT blatant copyright theft are missing or unclear.

I am not a mod here, but I would suggest closing this thread, and moving any relevant discussions elsewhere, probably under new threads. After all, who hasn't thought about what customised miniatures they might want for their HeroQuest game? Who hasn't wanted to preserve the game and it's various editions and components for archival and academic purposes.

I, myself, have used the assets from this very site to create a HeroQuest game (hybrid UK/US ruleset) playable on Roll20, which in itself counts as a transformative work, and therefore is covered under Fair Use criteria. The key is always going to be HOW something is used, and THAT is important when it comes to copyright law.


You're right about 1 thing, you most certainly are NOT a moderator on these forums. And second, maybe you could contribute a little more than 75 posts before you come busting into a thread showing your backside. Right or wrong, legal, not legal, whatever, you sure got a crappy attitude. If Hasbro or Game Workshop has an issue with me, the admin, the forums or anything else, they would have closed these forums down years ago over copyrighted material. If you would have taken the time to read ALL of my posts, I did in fact say that I am interested in producing only brand new miniatures and am willing to make a list from everyone here on the forums. But clearly you were too busy to come in here throwing the weight around that you think you have before reading all of my posts. |_P


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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby j_dean80 » Thursday December 31st, 2020 6:26pm

What about creating the monsters for the HQ25 project.?
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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Kurgan » Thursday December 31st, 2020 7:53pm

j_dean80 wrote:What about creating the monsters for the HQ25 project.?



I'm pretty sure those miniatures actually got released and are for sale via the original company, so probably not?
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PARDONED!!!!

Postby Kurgan » Thursday December 31st, 2020 8:01pm

Decipher wrote:You're right about 1 thing, you most certainly are NOT a moderator on these forums. And second, maybe you could contribute a little more than 75 posts before you come busting into a thread showing your backside. Right or wrong, legal, not legal, whatever, you sure got a crappy attitude. If Hasbro or Game Workshop has an issue with me, the admin, the forums or anything else, they would have closed these forums down years ago over copyrighted material. If you would have taken the time to read ALL of my posts, I did in fact say that I am interested in producing only brand new miniatures and am willing to make a list from everyone here on the forums. But clearly you were too busy to come in here throwing the weight around that you think you have before reading all of my posts. |_P


Let's face it, this happens in every thread, people will respond to the OP without reading the entire thread first, I've done it myself... we all have. With only 1,223 posts to my name, I agreed with those urging caution. I'm not a moderator either, so you can tell me to take a flying leap, if you want, but a more helpful suggestion I have to offer is just edit the OP and that should prevent further misunderstanding. We're just sharing opinions, which is what one invites when one starts a thread.

The situation now is not how it always was because: 1) Hasbro is actively producing, promoting and selling a new version of their game. 2) interest in HQ is peaking as a result, hence more eyes are going to be on us and our behavior here, 3) We're not just talking about something that exists that people could print on their own, but a product that would be indistinguishable from the original and is proposed for sale. Yes, Hasbro could shut us down (and that would be a sad day)... we're lucky they haven't so far, but why risk that? That was the point. You seem to agree with us that as one who wants to help out the community, this wasn't the way, but you've found a safer, better way now. Nobody is wanting to put you on the torture rack for having ideas here, least of all me! :D
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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby j_dean80 » Thursday December 31st, 2020 10:39pm

Kurgan wrote:
j_dean80 wrote:What about creating the monsters for the HQ25 project.?



I'm pretty sure those miniatures actually got released and are for sale via the original company, so probably not?


Actually HQ25 is an Inn project.
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