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Got a crazy idea again!

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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Decipher » Tuesday December 29th, 2020 2:26pm

Everyone relax. All I need is a list of 10 original miniatures that they would like to have for the original HeroQuest game and I will go from there. The expansion stuff I might try to do later down the road because it is so very rare and expensive to buy, I'll take the risk of Hasbro and Game Workshops wrath.

I already know Sir Ragnar is on the list.
I'm sure Skaven is too.
Nothing wrong with making an original female barbarian and a elf archer.


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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Pancho » Tuesday December 29th, 2020 3:07pm

Decipher wrote:Everyone relax. All I need is a list of 10 original miniatures that they would like to have for the original HeroQuest game and I will go from there. The expansion stuff I might try to do later down the road because it is so very rare and expensive to buy, I'll take the risk of Hasbro and Game Workshops wrath.

I already know Sir Ragnar is on the list.
I'm sure Skaven is too.
Nothing wrong with making an original female barbarian and a elf archer.

You want to create entirely new minis? I thought you were saying that you were going to reproduce the original figures.
I’m totally confused now. I’m sure you know there were never any “original” Sir Ragnar figures, or Skaven intended solely for Heroquest. Dude, you needed to be way clearer about your intentions :lol:

Do you mean original as in completely new, or original as in the original Heroquest figures!?!


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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Davane » Tuesday December 29th, 2020 7:48pm

There's nothing wrong with making completely NEW miniatures. You can merely "recommend" them as being HeroQuest compatible, without actually relying on the brand or anything infringing on IP from either Hasbro or GW.

In fact, it's entirely legal to recreate the entire HeroQuest miniature line if you do so by creating new miniatures, if you merely recommend them as being replacements for HeroQuest miniatures rather than copies of the miniatures that came from the original game system and expansions.

This is effectively what Hasbro is doing - combining their HeroQuest IP with completely new miniatures in order to avoid having to deal with GW over the miniatures, and changing the setting to avoid anything that can be regarded as Product Identity (Chaos to Dread, Fimir to Abominations, ect.).

However, given the wealth of miniatures out there, I'm not sure that you would necessarily attract as much attention for miniatures you make BEFORE showing mock ups, without referring to the HeroQuest brand.

More importantly, the confusion over the use of the term "original" here demonstrates just how risky such an endeavour could be. If people here think you are recreating the HeroQuest miniatures from the original game, then it's just as easy to assume that people at GW/Hasbro will make the same assumption, which opens up liability for copyright infringement. On the other hand, if you meant to create entirely new miniatures, the use of the term "original" in your idea can be deemed as misleading, which opens you up to claims of fraud and deception, especially if such confusion is intentional. This can be just as bad as copyright infringement, with added charges for fraud and/or misselling, as well as punitive damages for damage to the brand.

The confusion that you just caused, intentionally or otherwise, is the basis of a well-known selling scam known as the "bait and switch," in which you advertise one product for sale ("the bait"), and then fulfill those sales with a different, often inferior product ("the switch"). The scam relies mostly on making disputing such transactions and acquiring refunds as obnoxious as possible to deter consumers from reclaiming their money.

In this case, the confusion is selling "original HeroQuest miniatures" implying that you are providing the means of obtaining "copies of the miniatures from the original HeroQuest system," rather than selling "original HeroQuest miniatures" implying "new miniatures created for the HeroQuest game."

Just be warned that whilst the latter is legal, relying on the HeroQuest brand to sell them as any more than a "recommendation" may still cause issues through misadvertising and damaging the reputation of a brand. Also, chances are that, even if your intention was not to mislead, any judge would be likely to rule in favour of the plaintiff (be they copyright holders or consumers), proving to be very expensive for you regardless of what your intentions actually were.

Copyright law is NOT the same as criminal law, but a successful case of copyright infringement could see you facing criminal as well as civil charges, particularly if you are deemed to be trying to "obtain by deception."

In the meantime, be clear about your intentions, provide legitimate mock ups of what you intend to provide, and tread very carefully in what can be a very dangerous minefield these days...
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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby whitebeard » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 2:07pm

Davane wrote:There's nothing wrong with making completely NEW miniatures. You can merely "recommend" them as being HeroQuest compatible, without actually relying on the brand or anything infringing on IP from either Hasbro or GW.
. . .
In the meantime, be clear about your intentions, provide legitimate mock ups of what you intend to provide, and tread very carefully in what can be a very dangerous minefield these days...


It was pretty clear. He needs the ORIGINAL minis.

Decipher wrote:The process:
Each original figure will be 3D scanned by a company in California. They will send me the 3D mesh CAD prints which I will use to mill a mold to use in a plastic mold injection machine. So, technically, the miniatures should be exact duplicates of the originals other than the color. The best part about it is not only can I do the originals, but I will be able to also make all of the expansion miniatures as long as I can get them 3D scanned. Which some of them I will have to rely on some of you folks here on the forums because I don't have them all. I know its a terrifying idea to loan out a super rare miniature to a stranger


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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 2:47pm

I apologize for any misunderstanding on my part or if what I wrote sounded harsh. I interpreted the OP as meaning "identical looking replacements" for the Game System miniatures.

Creating new replacements for the classic Hero Quest minis (just as the Remake is doing) to me is a perfectly fine and safe thing, as long as everybody understands its a fan-made product, not endorsed by Hasbro. I myself bought a bunch of Reaper Bones minis, added bases and painted them to loosely resemble the Classic miniatures (mostly of the expansions I couldn't afford at the time). Nobody would ever confuse these with the real thing.

Like most of us here I love miniatures and I am in favor of more of them, it's just the risks entailed for the community that were at issue.
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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Oftkilted » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 2:57pm

A “Female Elf” to replace the EQP model.
A “Female Chaos/Elf Wizard” (could be leveraged to be used in place of Sinestra)

A Trollslayer model? (There was a Trollslayer hero that was released in the White Dwarf Magazine)

Elf/Dark Elf Warrior (with sword) to replace the EQP elf warrior
Elf/Dark Elf Archer (with bow/crossbow) to replace EQP archer

Orc Archer with bow (or crossbow)
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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 3:29pm

Sure, other suggestions...

(from the cancelled Dwarf Quest Pack, not the same models):

Minotaur Hero
Beastman monster (various weapons)
Centaur
Sabertooth Tiger
Evil Dwarf
Giant Spider

Goblin crossbowman!

How can you have a Troll Slayer but no trolls? Let me guess, "you killed them all" and are looking for work...
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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Pancho » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 4:09pm

There’s a Troll in the Durrag Dol quest. It also has a Rat Ogre and a Skaven Warlock. The eye thingy from Eyes of Chaos would also be cool too, although there are other figures that would be more pressing.


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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Davane » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 5:41pm

whitebeard wrote:
Davane wrote:There's nothing wrong with making completely NEW miniatures. You can merely "recommend" them as being HeroQuest compatible, without actually relying on the brand or anything infringing on IP from either Hasbro or GW.
. . .
In the meantime, be clear about your intentions, provide legitimate mock ups of what you intend to provide, and tread very carefully in what can be a very dangerous minefield these days...


It was pretty clear. He needs the ORIGINAL minis.

Decipher wrote:The process:
Each original figure will be 3D scanned by a company in California. They will send me the 3D mesh CAD prints which I will use to mill a mold to use in a plastic mold injection machine. So, technically, the miniatures should be exact duplicates of the originals other than the color. The best part about it is not only can I do the originals, but I will be able to also make all of the expansion miniatures as long as I can get them 3D scanned. Which some of them I will have to rely on some of you folks here on the forums because I don't have them all. I know its a terrifying idea to loan out a super rare miniature to a stranger.


Decipher wrote:Since the dice has been such a huge hit and a lot of fun offering an actual product to extend the life of the original HeroQuest game, I've toyed around a lot with reproducing the original HeroQuest miniature set. So, pondering with the idea since 2017, I've decided to plunge into it and I am going to give the project a green light. With a little bit of time, personal education and probably a bunch of trial & error, I will be reproducing the entire original miniature set sometime by Fall of 2021 as long as the world doesn't implode. These will not be made in China, these will be made right here in the USA. It's a lot cheaper for me to buy the equipment and make them myself then contract a company to do it, even in China.


Indeed, it is pretty clear that what Decipher intends to do amounts to copyright theft. He wants to scan the original miniatures in order to reproduce them as 3d printed copies.

The ONLY possible legitimate fair use of scanning the minis from the original game would be for archival and preservation purposes.

As such, I would strongly urge that the scanned files be uploaded for free alongside the other components of the games, as the games contents already exist here in an archival format. However, be aware that Hasbro/GW may well request that any such files are removed via a blanket DMCA takedown notice.

I would also strongly urge that Decipher keeps this as a passion project away from these forums. If Decipher wishes to obtain the original minis and copy them for his own purposes, that is down to him. He could even argue that the scans are for archival purposes, and that printing said scans are a way of training himself to use his 3d printer. These are both potential Fair Use claims. A further Fair Use claim might be to photograph and critique such models, most likely as a comparison on 3d printing technology as a means to preserve game components.

What Decipher should NOT do is talk openly about selling or distributing these models to others here on these forums. What individuals arrange between themselves is up to them, but the forum should not be condoning this as any sort of enterprise outside of an academic passion project, and certainly shouldn't be allowing such discussions to continue on the forum in anything other than a hypothetical manner. To do so puts the forum and the community at risk.

IF Decipher is looking at selling miniatures, then they have to be "significantly different" from the original Heroquest miniatures. Copyright only covers exact replicas, but doesn't include derivative works. Thus Decipher COULD scan an original HeroQuest mini to create 3d prints for himself, which he could THEN modify and get rescanned for resale purposes. They should clearly be marked as original works by Decipher, modified from the existing HeroQuest models.

It can often come down to a court ruling on what counts as "significantly different" but one criteria to look for is that a reasonable amount of time and effort has gone into creating a derivative work. So changing poses and altering body/facial features may count, but putting an extra bevel on the base or putting a small notch in the weapon might not. The key criteria would be how easily the derivative work could be mistaken for the original inspiration. The more it looks like a copy, the less chance it will be acceptable as a derivative work.

This is why it's important that the intention is made crystal clear, as to what the purpose and expected outcome of this idea will be, as this will determine whether it's acceptable as fair use, and for what purpose; or if it is to be considered as a derivative work. As it stands, the intention sounds like blatant copyright theft, because the other necessary details that make it NOT blatant copyright theft are missing or unclear.

I am not a mod here, but I would suggest closing this thread, and moving any relevant discussions elsewhere, probably under new threads. After all, who hasn't thought about what customised miniatures they might want for their HeroQuest game? Who hasn't wanted to preserve the game and it's various editions and components for archival and academic purposes.

I, myself, have used the assets from this very site to create a HeroQuest game (hybrid UK/US ruleset) playable on Roll20, which in itself counts as a transformative work, and therefore is covered under Fair Use criteria. The key is always going to be HOW something is used, and THAT is important when it comes to copyright law.
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Re: Got a crazy idea again!

Postby Pancho » Wednesday December 30th, 2020 5:44pm

Yeah probably best to close down the thread. As a passion project I fully support this, but it should be organised via PM.


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