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Spells used in Sotiris Game

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Spells used in Sotiris Game

Postby Anderas » Friday January 15th, 2016 4:57am

Hey,
To keep the rules discussion out of the game, here the spells discussion.

First, Mesmerize. I think it is way too strong today. With a sorcerer who has sufficient mind points it is an auto success. Either the mental duel should be made weaker or the spell should cost a mind point each turn, so that it doesn't last forever.

Then, future sight. Does it really need updating? I am ok to reroll partial rolls and extend it to all dice rolls in general.


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Re: Spells used in Sotiris Game

Postby Gold Bearer » Friday January 15th, 2016 5:20am

The talisman spells aren't supposed to be balanced with each other, some are definitely more powerful than others. I would say that mesmorism is probably the strongest spell in the set. It's supposed to be better than command and a way of creating a permanent follower if it's cast on a target with low enough MP. If it had been cast on an ogre it would be unbreakable. That would be quite a boost to the heroes. Not only do they take out a powerful enemy but get it on their side instead, but remember it can always be broken by the EWP by simply killing the monster, we don't have that option (well not really) with command.

Maybe it would be better if it was toned down slightly. Maybe the caster rolls a combat dice and looses 1MP on black shield and the spell breaks. I'm in the process of revising these spells so I'll have a think about it. Obviously if Sotiris decides it needs toning down in his game that's a separate issue, but I'd like to use the rules I finalise for them in this game if possible.


Future sight doesn't really need an improvement (it's already been improved by allowing it be cast on a target other than the caster) if you look at it in isolation but the detection set as a whole does need the most improvement, so I think also allow partial rerolls (maybe that was the intent with the standard spell anyway) and expanding it to all dice is a good option. Most of the time it will only be used for attack, defence and movement anyway.
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Re: Spells used in Sotiris Game

Postby Anderas » Saturday January 16th, 2016 2:15am

Gold Bearer wrote:What happens if you fail the test?
Lose the spell without casting,
lose the spell but still cast it
or just can't cast it this turn? I take it you still lose the MP whatever?


I pay the cost, but no effect comes into play.
In this case, pay 2 Mind Points and have no effect.

I have the option, if i miss by few points only, to pay one or two additional mind points and making the dice result better. One point dice result for one mind point extra paid.
The mind points are paid after the test.
Of course that becomes rapidly very expensive, so even in my reallife test games it happens rarely, and if it happens, the wizard is more or less knocked out for some turns afterwards.

All the spells and all the cost
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3217

Future sight doesn't really need an improvement (it's already been improved by allowing it be cast on a target other than the caster) if you look at it in isolation but the detection set as a whole does need the most improvement, so I think also allow partial rerolls (maybe that was the intent with the standard spell anyway) and expanding it to all dice is a good option. Most of the time it will only be used for attack, defence and movement anyway.


yes the detection spells are weak, but i really wouldn't take future sight any step further to be honest. Partial rerolls are like additional dice, so it's really a huge difference to full set rerolls. I think future sight only for attack, move, defense is already worth a lot. I think it is so strong that I attached a cost of 3 Mind Points if you want to keep the spell after casting.

It's more treasure horde and clairvoyance that need some amendments.
Image
I always like to have an "expert option" somewhere in a spell set, so a wizard with Talisman of Lore or any other Mind point boost can do a lot more with the spell than a beginner's wizard.
In this case you pay one mind point (it's not a lot); but then you do a test +4 which no-one would try without any boost.
But as payback, you don't only keep the spell (that would be meh) but you see traps and secret doors along with the other content of the room.
I thought about the room - by - room searching option like you have it, but i couldn't decide for it. And my english is not so good; so i don't know how to add it without having too much text.

Treasure horde
Image
The amount of gold and other stuff found in the game is a game-critical value. It wouldn't break a single quest if we find too much, but the game in total would quickly saturate if the treasure deck could be scanned fast: In worst case we arrive at that stage where the players say "oh we don't need any more gold, it's ok, i don't search". So there was no way i would make the spell reuseable.

Instead I added an expert option again: pay a single mind point, but make that difficult test +4 for the expert option. And as an expert, you may discard one of the three treasure cards - that means, most of the time you will be well protected against bad effects of the treasure deck. I've seen you have added that to the standard spell. I thought that would be too much... but i may rethink


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Re: Spells used in Sotiris Game

Postby Gold Bearer » Saturday January 16th, 2016 3:29am

Anderas wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:What happens if you fail the test?
Lose the spell without casting,
lose the spell but still cast it
or just can't cast it this turn? I take it you still lose the MP whatever?


I pay the cost, but no effect comes into play.
In this case, pay 2 Mind Points and have no effect.
I take it that's your attacking/searching action gone for the turn?

Anderas wrote:I have the option, if i miss by few points only, to pay one or two additional mind points and making the dice result better. One point dice result for one mind point extra paid.
The mind points are paid after the test.
Of course that becomes rapidly very expensive, so even in my reallife test games it happens rarely, and if it happens, the wizard is more or less knocked out for some turns afterwards.
Hmm, seems a bit too far, but maybe it's because I'm not used to it yet. New stuff tends to seem more OP to start with because it's new.

Anderas wrote:yes the detection spells are weak, but i really wouldn't take future sight any step further to be honest.
Sotiris has already allowed that change. I don't think it takes it too far because the other two are still fairly weak and the trap spell effect rerolls have very limited usage, it's just that there's a lot of fimirs in this quest and I think Sotiris gives them all a spell as standard.

Anderas wrote:Partial rerolls are like additional dice, so it's really a huge difference to full set rerolls.
Not quite, with extra dice you can score higher, with rerolls you can't. Partial rerolls are a lot more of an upgrade than including all dice though, but I'm not sure if you're meant to be allowed partial rerolls anyway, the card it isn't clear.

Anderas wrote:I think future sight only for attack, move, defense is already worth a lot. I think it is so strong that I attached a cost of 3 Mind Points if you want to keep the spell after casting.
The biggest improvement over the standard version by far is that it can now be cast on someone else.

Anderas wrote:Image
Revealing traps and secret doors is a nice upgrade.

Anderas wrote:Image
The amount of gold and other stuff found in the game is a game-critical value. It wouldn't break a single quest if we find too much, but the game in total would quickly saturate if the treasure deck could be scanned fast: In worst case we arrive at that stage where the players say "oh we don't need any more gold, it's ok, i don't search". So there was no way i would make the spell reuseable.
Making it reusable is somewhat offset by how dangerous it is but with the addition of discarding one card it becomes a lot safer so it would probably be too much.

Anderas wrote:Instead I added an expert option again: pay a single mind point, but make that difficult test +4 for the expert option. And as an expert, you may discard one of the three treasure cards - that means, most of the time you will be well protected against bad effects of the treasure deck. I've seen you have added that to the standard spell. I thought that would be too much... but i may rethink
Mine's slightly different. You always discard one instead of having the choice but you'd rarely want to keep all three anyway.
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Re: Spells used in Sotiris Game

Postby Anderas » Saturday January 16th, 2016 7:35am

Anderas wrote:Partial rerolls are like additional dice, so it's really a huge difference to full set rerolls.
Gold Bearer wrote:Not quite, with extra dice you can score higher, with rerolls you can't. Partial rerolls are a lot more of an upgrade than including all dice though, but I'm not sure if you're meant to be allowed partial rerolls anyway, the card it isn't clear.


That's an old beginners failure to think so.
Theoretically you could score higher if you just add dice, but in reality the result is exactly the same; apart from maybe 1% peak result - nothing you'd need to count in a gaming environment.

In my rulebook it's stated that rerolls are always the entire dice roll.

Anderas wrote:I have the option, if i miss by few points only, to pay one or two additional mind points and making the dice result better. One point dice result for one mind point extra paid.
The mind points are paid after the test.
Of course that becomes rapidly very expensive, so even in my reallife test games it happens rarely, and if it happens, the wizard is more or less knocked out for some turns afterwards.
Gold Bearer wrote:Hmm, seems a bit too far, but maybe it's because I'm not used to it yet. New stuff tends to seem more OP to start with because it's new.


It's not OP - I playtested in four games before coming to Sotiris.
The core point for me was that the Wizard shall be able to cast throughout the game, never keeping something back just in case for later - but never with the ability to overload a given situation with three, four spells at a time. For me that's one of the wizard-sicknesses: being a mp with only one magazine. Once you shoot, you're strong, but after half a second you're empty.

It leads to two player behaviors: Never cast a spell, because the next situation might be worse and more worth it; and feeling weak all the time just because they don't dare to use the spells they have.
Now i wanted a mechanism that allows to cast whenever you like without caring for later because you can keep the spells - but not allowing the wizard to become too strong.

So Spells that are useful but not OP received a recast option; bullshit spells received an upgrade, whereas potentially game-breaking spells that generate BP in any way or disabling an enemy got nothing. Or if they got something then it is an expert option with a +3 or +4 test that is "nice to have" but not OP.

Wall of stone/ice/fire generate BP because part of the damage Morcar can deal throughout the game has to be dealt on these spells. Healing Spells generate BP. Spells that bring monster under your command generate BP (effectively, the Monster's BP count to the Hero group's BP now). So these are restricted to one-time-use only; part of them have further restrictions to make them a bit situational and not an easy choice.

Stunlock spells like Chains of Darkness, Sleep and others are one-time-only to avoid the big boss enemy being locked by a single wizard while the rest of the group joyfully beats him to death. They received an expert option only; for example to enhance the effect to the entire room and such. And i tried to make the expert option situational of course, for example you would hit friendly models, too.

Buffs and debuffs are only useable one at a time, so even with reuse-courage you could never give somebody several courages; instead you can use him again only after the effect wears off. In case of Stone Skin and Courage i gave them one dice for the wizard reuseable; or two dice for somebody else but you have to discard the spell.

Finally, each and every reuse option costs mind points AND a test on mind points. So as the wizard has only 6 mind points, the first reuse-option might be easy going; the second would be difficult already as you roll against a smaller mind point value. I cast fireball now and had to roll +1 against 6 Mind Points (83% success); if i want to recast it right now i would have to roll +1 against 4 Mind points - a mere 50/50 chance for a second success - or i finally discard the card, but then it is gone. I always have to pay the full cost including the cast action, no matter if i succeed or not.

Then, don't forget that i play with my life here: if i arrive at 0 mind points at any time, Sotiris' rules come into effect full force, killing me easily.
Refilling mind points is only one at a time at the cost of an action, so in a typical densely packed dungeon, i will not have a lot of opportunities to refill. Thanks to your wall of stone, we had a little pause and i am full now; otherwise that wouldn't be the case.


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Re: Spells used in Sotiris Game

Postby Gold Bearer » Saturday January 16th, 2016 1:16pm

Anderas wrote:
Anderas wrote:Partial rerolls are like additional dice, so it's really a huge difference to full set rerolls.
Gold Bearer wrote:Not quite, with extra dice you can score higher, with rerolls you can't. Partial rerolls are a lot more of an upgrade than including all dice though, but I'm not sure if you're meant to be allowed partial rerolls anyway, the card it isn't clear.
That's an old beginners failure to think so.
Theoretically you could score higher if you just add dice, but in reality the result is exactly the same; apart from maybe 1% peak result - nothing you'd need to count in a gaming environment.
I said not quite, I didn't say nowhere near. Besides, it's a lot more than 1% unless you're rolling a ridiculous amount of dice. Using two dice and skulls, it's one in eight that you'll score higher with an extra dice than with just one rerolled dice allowed, more than ten times 1% and it goes up with more allowed rerolls, and down the more dice that are initially rolled.
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Re: Spells used in Sotiris Game

Postby Anderas » Sunday January 17th, 2016 2:50am

Yes that's actually the second most extreme example we have in HQ. Already here you will not feel the difference, even if rolling three skulls with three dice happens sometimes. You will likely confess that for three dice and more, this discussion becomes useless.

Future sight in my version would likely be used on the strongest warrior or on the one who has the biggest problems, like Jari in the recent game. They have usually three or four dice, in defense sometimes five or six. Here we start talking.
But really Gold Bearer, we discussed this very point in at least three or four different topics now so just let's get back to topic please.

I would rather talk about OP or not. That's more the point in this thread.

You just displayed a combination. Remove mind points then mesmerize. Here it gets even stronger. As you said, an Ogre would become a permanent follower effectively adding Body Points to the group, and have strong Attack and defense capabilities.
Then your wizard is apparently able to cast two wall of stones in a row, and here the added effects get really.... well I would say I would exactly want to know beforehand what he can do if you play that in my group. So no dice rolling or hidden spells. Then I would be forced to add monsters worth of 8 or 10 BP to my quest to equalize. That's about the amount of Monsters of the entire Rescue sir Ragnar quest.

I think the entire problem would be solved if mesmerize had a limit for some turns, for example, by costing a mind point per round. Then it is more like a strong attack spell but not like a permanent bonus.


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Re: Spells used in Sotiris Game

Postby Gold Bearer » Sunday January 17th, 2016 3:34am

Wtf? This is the first and only time I've ever spoken about rerolls vs extra dice.

I was using just one reroll in my example, the odds go up with multiple rerolls, like for future sight where you're allowed to reroll any amount. In that case the odds are significant with up to four dice at least.


Using two spells in combination SHOULD make the effect stronger, that's was the whole point of using the second spell. Having a spells that can interact like that isn't a problem, it's an added bonus! My wizard can cast two walls of stone because he got lucky with his casting roll. I've been lucky with all three. The odds of something bad happening are one in three. Dice rolling and hidden spells are what make this hero what it is. Sotiris made a point of NOT wanting to know what spells he's got because that's what makes him interesting.

Anderas wrote:It's not OP - I playtested in four games before coming to Sotiris.
The core point for me was that the Wizard shall be able to cast throughout the game, never keeping something back just in case for later - but never with the ability to overload a given situation with three, four spells at a time. For me that's one of the wizard-sicknesses: being a mp with only one magazine. Once you shoot, you're strong, but after half a second you're empty
Can "cast throughout the quest" with absolutely no balancing measure other than having only six spells. Yes you can't cast more than a few in short succession but you very rarely need to. That's hugely OP! It's also overly complicated. Two awkward special rules, a rewite of every spell to make it work an artifact to go with it? Really :?:

You're talking utter rubbish!

I'm happy to discuss rules with you in a civilised way but not with this kind of *lemony goodness*:
Anderas wrote:That's an old beginners failure to think so.
Anderas wrote:So no dice rolling or hidden spells.
Sort out your attitude right the fraggle now please!

Edit:
I've thought of something that could be very interesting for mesmerism. The caster has to keep mesmorised monsters in his line of sight. Either at the end of each turn or always. Maybe the EWP could break the spell if the mesmorised monster isn't in the caster's LOS at the end of the EWP turn.
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Re: Spells used in Sotiris Game

Postby Anderas » Sunday January 17th, 2016 5:34am

The system was developed in cooperation with Mohawk and Slev.

I like your proposition for mesmerize.
I don't like your discussion style.


Discussion closed.


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Re: Spells used in Sotiris Game

Postby Gold Bearer » Sunday January 17th, 2016 5:48am

Anderas wrote:The system was developed in cooperation with Mohawk and Slev.
If three people worked on it that would explain why it's so overly complex.

Anderas wrote:I don't like your discussion style.
I was a response to yours. Don't try dishing it out if you can't take it yourself!

Anderas wrote:Discussion closed.
Careful you don't have someones eye out spitting your dummy around like that. If you want to take that chip off your shoulder I'll do the same. |_P
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

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