Polar Warbear double attack

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The flexibility of the Polar War Bear is that he can choose to EITHER attack one single hero with 8 dice, or two adjacent heroes each with 4 dice. The same is true for the heroes.

That is interesting, still trying to get my head around the implications if we were to apply that to other 'two attack' situations, but this interpretation seems to make more sense for the Polar Warbear in terms of the impact on the original rules (although if this is what was intended then the actual wording included in the "rule clarifications" has the opposite effective and would have better been titled "rule confusions") i.e. the Polar Warbear gets a single 8 dice attack OR can split its attack and target two adjacent Heroes each with a single attack of 4 dice. This means whichever option the PW goes with, any individual only gets attacked once, by that monster on that turn, so all previous defend related rules still stand unchanged.

[Kurgan]

I know I've posted about a dozen times across the forums with my interpretation of the "original intention" of the Polar Warbear double attack against a single hero... but for the life of me, going back through the actual draft scans I CAN'T FIND where I read that! So I'm wondering if maybe I misread it (perhaps reading into the notes what I thought should be there???) and really all along the interpretation you see in the "Into the Northlands" is really just a clarification of what they always intended.

If I can find it again I'll re-post it, but for now I "retract" my argument that this was meant to be official but inexplicably changed to the (less good) version we have seen since then. I still think if you're making a HOMEBREW FIX that my version is better, mainly because it's just easier for the good guys in such a difficult pack.

But the intention I think originally was like this, and see how it changes through different editions:

1 (1992 published edition): PWB monster rolls 4 dice against a hero. Hero rolls defense. PWB decides "hmm, think I'll attack him AGAIN!" and rolls. Hero is powerless and can't roll another defense that turn. DEVASTATING!

2 (pre-release draft notes): Same as above, but they were thinking of making it so that it would apply to hero attacks as well. So the Hero (using Orc's Bane, Heroic Brew, or Potion of Battle Rage, theoretically an Elf with Potion of Speed since they intended you to be able to buy potions from any packs you own, which you might own!) could do the same as the above in #1 vs. a monster. This would be very powerful against monsters especially with their weaker defense!

3 (2022 "Into the Northlands" errata/playtest): They "clarified" that contrary to #1, the Hero actually has the ability to decide to WAIT for a possible second attack to role his defense. As written, this implies he's willing to say the first attack against him is UNBLOCKABLE (maybe it was a really weak roll or missed completely) and he will ONLY roll against the second attack. Of course a crafty Zargon could always decide (if there were multiple targets of opportunity) to just not attack again, and leave that attack unblockable. But if Zargon decided not to attack, then the hero would justly still be able to roll against the one attack directed at him, so never mind. Notice it does NOT say he gets to see both attacks and decide which one to roll against after seeing both results and nothing about a heroic version of this (so that means monsters get to defend again and again no matter how many attacks are directed at them from the same hero).

4 (2022 Companion App for Frozen Horror). I presume that "Into the Northlands" the Polar Warbear (SPOILERS) does not attack the hero UNLESS he attacks him first, then the same rules would apply. But the Companion App seems to clarify #3 further by making it so that the Hero, when a Polar Warbear attacks, gets to see the results of the two attacks and then decides which one he wants to defend against. And due to the "honor system" of the Companion app (it's up to you to roll each hero's physical dice and record the outcome just as it's up to you to subtract body points or not) you COULD easily implement either the stricter #3 approach or some homebrew approach (like mine... adding the two monster rolls together and having the hero defend against all with a single roll at the end).

Having a single unblockable 4 dice roll does seem more powerful than having an 8 dice roll that in theory could be defended against with 6 or more defend dice (heroes can easily go over 6 if they have potions/spells and why wouldn't they use such in a dire situation like this!).

Of course Potions are also not accounted for by the Companion App, so even with this official "enforcement" Zargon has some leway to allow stuff.

Much like how some were saying the only way to escape a Yeti hug in solo mode before was to let yourself die (then auto-revive with a potion), you can play around with it if you don't agree with the intention of the designers.

[lestodante]

Everytime I read a post about the "double attack and only defend once" I am more convinced this is the worst rule they could create back in 1992!!!
Giving a figure the skill of a double attack is already a bonus, not giving the target the chance to defend is a real mess!
I really hope people will homebrew this by simple ignoring the "may only defend once" part (as it was for the Orc's Bane artifact).

[wallydubbs]

Everytime I read a post about the "double attack and only defend once" I am more convinced this is the worst rule they could create back in 1992!!!
Giving a figure the skill of a double attack is already a bonus, not giving the target the chance to defend is a real mess!
I really hope people will homebrew this by simple ignoring the "may only defend once" part (as it was for the Orc's Bane artifact).

I'm not even sure this was rule specified back in 1992. Correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't until recently that the only defend once was established as a rule. Yes Orc's Bane gives the hero wielding it 2 attacks on the orc and Polar Warbear is given 2 attacks, but nowhere in the original (as far as I know) is the only defend once rule specified. I believe the answer was only brought about in the companion app after enough people pushed for an answer.
I always thought every attack was granted a defence unless the defender is sleeping. As a Zargon I wouldn't enforce this. My orcs will continue to get two defences against Orc's Bane and the heroes may defend twice against a Polar Warbear.

[Markus Darwath]

I just checked the '92 BQP booklet pdf. I does specify one defense roll per monster per turn, but doesn't explicitly state that you are only defending one or the other in a multiple attack.
As far as the remake, the multi-attack ability for the Rogue of Elethorn does specify that the target may only defend against one of the attacks.
Personally, I will ignore that and go with one defense per attacker per turn, hero or monster, but the defense applies against the cumulative result of all attacks from that attacker. It's still rough, but not as bad as ending up wasting shields against a weak attack and getting hammered by a stronger one.

[lestodante]

but the defense applies against the cumulative result of all attacks from that attacker. It's still rough, but not as bad as ending up wasting shields against a weak attack and getting hammered by a stronger one.

But this would be a different mechanic which just double both attack and defend dice.
I remember I've read a Zargon's tweet on his page involving the Orc's bane too but I may be wrong.
What I don't like about this rule is that's not easy to understand to everyone, especially kids probably, and different situations may complicate things when the players should calculate what to do (to defend or not to defend?) and the same for the attacker which may try to calculate the best thing to do (should I attack a single figure twice or maybe two different figures?).
It causes to slow down the game.

[Markus Darwath]

I guess I didn't word that clearly enough. What I meant was, the defender rolls one defense against each attacker, and the result of that one roll counts against the total number of hits the attacker rolls, whether it was one attack or two. For example, Elf has four defense dice, Warbear swings twice at her with a 1 and a 3, Elf rolls her defense and gets 3 shields, so she takes 1 damage.
That's just how I choose to play it.

If one were to play multi-attack strictly as written in the Rogue Heir's ability, the Warbear would roll 1skull on it's first attack, which the Elf would block with her 3 shields. The Warbear would then attack again and it's second hit of 3 skulls would be undefended and the Elf loses 3BP in that turn.
To me, this method is a bit over the top, considering how many dice the Warbear is throwing in total. It's a formidable enough opponent without making half its attack rolls unblockable. Also, if played this way it becomes a bit too obvious that Zargon is taking it easy on the Heroes if he chooses to split the attacks between two targets, because someone who's out to do harm is simply not going to give up a free swing.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I still like my interpretation...the Polar Warbear gets a single 8 dice attack OR can split its attack and target two adjacent Heroes each with a single attack of 4 dice. This means whichever option the PW goes with, any individual only gets attacked once, by that monster on that turn, so all previous defend related rules still stand unchanged.

[Markus Darwath]

I still like my interpretation...the Polar Warbear gets a single 8 dice attack OR can split its attack and target two adjacent Heroes each with a single attack of 4 dice. This means whichever option the PW goes with, any individual only gets attacked once, by that monster on that turn, so all previous defend related rules still stand unchanged.

That's effectively the same as the way I choose to play it, just viewed from a different perspective.

[Kurgan]

One thing we wondered about (and I wondered too the first time I saw the text of the Frozen Horror, maybe around 2002?) was, okay so the hero only gets one roll against the Polar Warbear's double attack... but what if that defend roll was a REALLY good one? Let's say I rolled six white shields, and the first enemy roll was four skulls and then the second was another four skulls... do I really get four unblockable hits, or can I say no, I get two unblockable hits, because my "excess white shields" covered them?

That would be Zargon's call, but I don't think, based on what we've seen so far, that was what anyone had in mind at any time, it's just a desire on the part of the hero player to not be punished so much with this rule.

Prior to the release of BQP, I think it was just assumed that the every attack had a defensive roll unless it said otherwise (in the cases of most traps for instance and some spells) whether hero or monster.

It's quite possible that an expansion (or even an individual quest) will modify the rules. There is also a desire by many players to have a single unified ruleset that applies to all heroquest campaigns, when in reality these were written at different times and with different rules in mind, so if we are going by "designer intention" that would vary by the pack being played. Maybe sometimes double attacks work this way, or another time they work another way. But by 1992 there were many ways for heroes to double attack and at least one way for monsters to do so.