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The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Do you think a Modular System of House Rules would be an advantage for us as HQ players?

Poll ended at September 21st, 2011, 2:10 pm

Yes, I like the concept and would perhaps contribute to it.
7
54%
It would certainly be an advantege and I would definitely use it myself.
1
8%
I think it's a good idea, but I'm unsure about the outcome, will wait for the result.
2
15%
I will pehaps use it sometimes.
0
No votes
I'm utterly unconcerned.
1
8%
I don't like the idea, but wait for the result until I judge.
0
No votes
I don't like the idea and won't use it, but don't mind you to go on with it. To each his own!
1
8%
I openly oppose the concept. Don't restrict the fantasys of authors!
0
No votes
Nothing of the above, but generally Yes
1
8%
Nothing of the above, but generally No
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 13

Re: The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby el_flesh » September 20th, 2011, 10:05 am

PERFECT naming system
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Re: The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby Daedalus » September 20th, 2011, 1:41 pm

I like Scrolls, too. Maybe each individual house-rule could be called a Passage or Secret.
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Re: The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby sadkitchen » September 20th, 2011, 10:20 pm

So let me see if I have this straight.

We start with The Tome.
    One part of this is the Lore of Searching.
      Within the Lore of Searching is a Scroll of Searching for Secret Doors.
        And somewhere inside of that is the Passage of SadKitchen's Home-Brew rule.

If that is correct then I think we have a winner.

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Re: The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby Sjeng » September 21st, 2011, 6:44 am

torilen wrote:How about this:
The entire project is a Tome
Categories would be a Lore
Subcategories would be Scrolls

whaddaya think?

Well, a Tome is a large book, so yes, good idea. Giant rulebook with everything in it.
Lore is background stories, writing. Something that could be written in the tome. So, yes, sure.

A scroll however is a seperate piece of paper with writing, so NOT inside the time per se. And it should be a subcategorie of some piece of Lore, right?
Or does the Lore in the Tome refer to seperate Scrolls for further information?

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Re: The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby torilen » September 21st, 2011, 9:02 am

sjeng - well, that could be one possibility, if we looked at the naming in a more literal sense.
Granted...you do have a point that the term scroll is used for separate, individual pieces of
paper or parchment with writing upon them...and they would not really be inside a tome.

I think we were simply looking for good names that fit with the feeling and spirit of HQ.
Now...far be it from me to poo-poo anyone taking things literal - I've tossed out thousands of
ideas on personal stuff because the name I was coming up with would've have worked from a
literal stand point.
I'm kind of okay with it this time, though. And...hey, like you said...perhaps the Tome sits on
a big table, with all of the Lore of Heroquest held within. But, over the thousands of years, the
lore has been added to, and it is all kept in a great library, where the Tome sits in the
middle. There are tiny notes added to the Tome, under each Lore, about what section of the
library and on what shelf to find the Scrolls for the added pieces of writing.

Hmm....sounds like a quest (or quest pack) to me. hahahaha


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Re: The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby Daedalus » September 21st, 2011, 3:26 pm

I'd like a word about the structure of our project as it exists on this site. We're going to need a way to organize things in threads so that they may fit here at the Inne without overcrowding or getting lost in other threads. Ultimately, drathe as the Innekeeper may decide to open a new section to house this modular house-rule thing, but it shouldn't be put on him as an expectation. We need to structure our contributions as a work in progress. Later, it may be refined as a finished thread that may not even require anything from the Innekeeper. I have some ideas, but I may not have it right....

There appear to be a few places where our work belongs. This discussion thread is appropriate at this planning stage. We can achieve a general concensus of ideas and direction here. Our catalogue will be extensive, however, so it will need to be split into other threads. The Projects section seems a likely place to organize sections, perhaps as individual threads. The HeroQuest Additions-Rules section is also an appropriate place for threads, though it is already crowded.

I was thinking maybe a stickied thread (easy for drathe) that included links organized as a table of contents might prove useful for navigating the project. As indicated by Big Bene, it could be headed by a preamble stating the objectives and use of the project. Definitions of concepts such as base rules and values should also be at the beginning. Next would be the table of contents, with each section (call it a Lore) linked to a different page of the thread. Each page (containing 10 posts) could start with the Lore of XXXX title, followed by its base rules and base values as the first post. Several house-rules (chosen by poll in a seperate submissions thread, see below) could be posted in modular form, each of which could be linked to it's original thread for a more complete record of information. A final post on the page would link to additional house rules from the appropriate submissions thread if the number of house rules exceeded the post limit of 9 for that Lore. (Optionally, we could go with 2 Lores per page, with a post limit of 4 house-rules.)

The submissions threads would each be titled with something like Lore of XXXX submissions. A poll for voting would be the first post, followed by base rules, base values, and the rules for formatting a submission in the second post. A linked contents page might be useful for the third post, but perhaps unnecessary as the poll post already provides a listing. Following posts containing house rules would be submitted by interested Inne members. They would need to be numbered or otherwise identified for polling purposes (described in formatting from the second post of the Lore). Links to the thread of origin could optionally be included by a poster, as well as any further comments.

Perhaps others' rules could be nominated/posted as well, giving credit to the original poster. It would probably be best to require notification/permission from the author of the house rule if changes were made for formatting. Otherwise a quote from the original house rule thread may be sufficient for inclusion as a submission. Another option could be to rework the rule, but give credit for the original inspiration with a link to the original house-rule thread.

A post in a submissions thread may not even need to be modular, as it's inclusion outside of the Tome thread could be justified as a means of having a more complete catalogue available. Not all posters may be interested in converting into a modular expression, after all. If a poll indicated interest in the rule, a non-converted rule could even be reworked by another member and included, as suggested in the paragraph above.

As there are a lot of submission threads for the Lores, it may be necessary to condense/organize them within different main 'parent' theads. For example, there could be a Lore of Searching submissions 'parent' thread (4 pages total) containing a contents page with links to a General Searching Mechanics sub-section (1 page), a Search for Treasure sub-section (1 page), and a Search for Traps/Secret Door sub-section (1 page).

A few more points: It would be slick to use attachments within a table of contents page instead of links, as they remain hidden until opened on the page. That could open a window onto an entire Lore section with say, the top 5 house rules and a link to the rest of the parent thread. I've seen something like this done on Heroscapers.com, and it condenses things nicely while allowing them to be viewable upon demand from a single page. Its use is very intuitive, but is that possible here at the Inne?

Another thing I noticed at Heroscapers.com is that a community project can bog down into bickering over what to include, who is right, or who gets the final decision power. To head-off such butting of egos, some development threads create a sort of charter, describing who has decision rights and how members are limited in contribution. Thier aims are different, but some lessons may be learned in advance by checking that excellent site out. I doubt we want to get so formal, but forewarned is forearmed.

A final thought is I'd like this project to be on-going. By that I mean, let there be periodic renewal of house-rule submissions and polling- say anually. If there is continuing interest, the Inne's Tome of House Rules (Tome of Enhancements?) could grow, providing a well-ordered listing of house-rules for members and lurkers alike.

I kinda feel like I did playing my first game of Heroquest. Wasn't too sure what I could do or what was going to happen, but excited to try it out. Little did I know what was in store for us in that first, really tough Quest. Still, we eeked-out a victory and were hungry for more...hope this project does the same. |_P
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Re: The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby torilen » September 22nd, 2011, 2:29 pm

I'll have some comments on daedalus' post. I just need some time to digest it all first. I'm taking it to work
tonight, and I hope to post something tomorrow.

BY THE WAY - if anyone cares...I won't be making any posts for the next week - I'll be out of town until oct. 3.
SO...if any decisions are made...go ahead with it...I'm sure I'll be fine. I like the direction this is taking so far.
Otherwise, I'll pipe back in in a week.

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Re: The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby Big Bene » September 23rd, 2011, 11:18 am

Hi!
Poll is over, with vastly positive reactions. |_P At this poiont, I'd like to send drathe a PN to ask his opinion. After all, we do this as an "Inn" project.

His approval given, the next step would be deciding a deadline for finishing the project. I think we should define it "finished" at some point, so that authors who wish to use it can be sure their house rules ("moduels" / "passages") will stay compatible and not become outdated with "Tome 1.2".

I was a bit busy the last days, and still am, but I'll try to catch up with the discussion.

The List o'Lores
(My own comments in orc green).
Daedalus wrote:PREAMBLE

BASIC VALUES

BASIC RULES

When writing about "basic rules" and "basic values" I meant that every indiviual lore has it's basic value(s) and basic rule(s). But of course you're right, there have to be some "very basic" rules that apply to the whole tome, defining how to use it.

LORES
GAME SETUP
SEQUENCE OF PLAY I already have some ideas how this Lore could look like. The most basic Basic rule would of course be that Sequence of play must always be turn-based.
HEROES
ABILITIES ABILITIES seem to be a somewhat controversal point when compared to EXTRAORDINARY SITUATIONS. Will discuss this later, taking into regard Torilen's comments.
MOVEMENT
ACTIONS This should be a sub-category ("scroll") of the SEQUENCE OF PLAY lore.
COMBAT (basic values: Attack and Defense)
MAGIC
SEARCHING(when and what to search, how to search) An excellent example of a lore that requires sub-lores. It would be up to the lore to define how and when to use the sub-lores. I'll discuss sub-lores below.
TREASURE SEARCH
TRAPS/SECRET DOOR SEARCH
TRAP DISARMING Perhaps a sub-lore of TRAPS?
VISION/LIGHT
TRAPS
EXTRAORDINARY SITUATIONS (falling, swimming, etc.)
EQUIPMENT USE(WEAPON USE, ARMOR USE, EQUIPMENT USE)
MERCENARIES
MONSTERS
THE EVIL SORCERER'S TURN
MONSTER ACTIONS

DEAD HEROES AND MONSTERS
BETWEEN QUESTS (the Armory, events)
EXPERIENCE/ADVANCEMENT
OTHER (basic rules: )


So, my version (at the moment) would be:
  1. Game Setup
  2. Sequence of Play
    1. Sequence of Players in a turn
    2. Sequence of Actions in a Player's turn
    3. The Gamemaster's turn
  3. Heroes (?)
  4. Movement
  5. Combat (Basic Values: Attack And Defense)
  6. Searching(When And What To Search, How To Search)
    1. Treasure Search
      1. When to search
      2. How to search
    2. Traps/secret Door Search
      1. When to search
      2. How to search
  7. Traps
    1. Beeing Trapped
    2. Trap Disarming
  8. Magic
  9. Abilities
    1. Natural Talents
    2. Learned Skills
  10. Vision and Light
  11. Equipment Use (Weapon Use, Armor Use, Equipment Use)
  12. Extraordinary Situations (Falling, Suffocating, etc.)
  13. Mercenaries
  14. Monsters
    1. Monster Actions
  15. Dead Heroes And Monsters
  16. Between Quests (The Armory, Events)
  17. Experience and Advancement
  18. Other

Actions, Abilities and Special Situations
Torilen wrote:though my thought was to include things like
climbing, falling, swimming in either the movement or action section....along with
pushing/pulling/lifting.
And perhaps new things (to make it a little more rpg if people desire) like moving
quietly, hiding, listening.

Daedalus wrote:Upon consideration, I agree with you about an Action section. Extraordinary Situations could be better represented with the original 6 actions. One approach could be to list them individually as actions, following the Instruction Booklet organization: Push/Pull an Object, Lift an Object, Carry an Object, Hide, Listen, and possibly Move Quietly.

Confucius wrote:The first thing to be done is what is necessary to rectify names."

OK, we have to define the Lores of Ability, Special Situations, and Actions more clearely.
Abilities
are attributes of a character (a hero, or perhaps even a monster), and flesh out his profile to more detail. They may be skills he can learn or talents he was born with. Just look at D&D or some other PnP roleplaying game. They sport elaborated skill systems for a reason. Players like to improve their characters, not only by increasing the basic attributes, but by giving them some "specialities". The Imperial Army, for example, is a houserule of skills. Abilities/Skills could be things like reading/writing, swimmming, singing, use a certain kind of equipment, in short: everything that some people can do because they learnded it or have some exeptional talent, but that doesn't come natural to everyone. The original HQ rules have no skill system, but if some author wants to include a house rule to cover it, we should have a Lore ready for him to have his rule compatible to the Tome.
Special (or "extraordinary") Situations
are brought about the heroes by the quest. Even if it is not part of everyday dungeneering, in some quests a hero may fall into a pit so deep that you have to actually calculate the damage he takes, be forced to cross a body of water or walk up a slippery slope. Let's say the floor of the room has given way, and the whole party now floats in a deep bassin of ice-cold water. Some party memebers might have the swimming skill from the Abilites Lore, but regardless if none, some, or all of them can swim, or if the player's don't use Abililty rules at all, there has to be some rule to handle this situation. This example also shows that Abilities and Special Situation rules have to be weighted very carefully against each other, because of the overlapping. An author who writes a house rule on how to learn swim and how to use this skill in the quests, would have to consider if there are already any ruels that define the effects of beeing in the water in general. To make this work, we will have a hard time defining "Basic Rules" and "Basic Values" for both Lores, so that an author of one of them would have only to adress the Basic values/rules of the other and still affect the single modules/passages correctly.
Actions
are a part of the sequence of play in a turn, and should be put in the Sequence of Play lore. One could use an "Action" to perform a geneeric task, like pushing and pulling, which everyone could do, to use a special skill, or to cover with an extraordinary situation.

Torilen wrote:For magic - the basic value would be the following, I think:
who can cast
how many spells known
how many spells per quest
spell list available

Too restrictive. Magic rules don't have to be based on "how many spells" a magic user can cast in a given time. Indeed, many games have each spell cost some points of magic energy, according to it's power. I don't see any compability issues in having such a system in heroquest. I even know at least two roleplaying games whith magic rules that are not spell-based at all. The magic users make up their "spells" on the fly, taking into consideration the effect they want to archive and use the rules to calculate the requirements. I don't know if something like this is possible in HeroQuest. Perhaps we have to restrict the Lore of Magic to predefined spell lists. We'll have to think about this. Of course, our system is all about restrictions, so that house rules keep compatible with one another, but methinks the less restrictions, the better. We should think what is neccessary for our system to work, and keep to this.

Sub-Lores
Daedalus wrote:As an aside, would it be better to subsume the Traps/Secret Door Search, Treasure Search and the Searching into a Search Lore rather than list them seperately?

Torilen wrote:daedalus - there would be benefits to doing it both ways for the searching...

Sadkitchen wrote:Possible idea is have a Lore of searching with 3 different “sub-lores” titled traps, treasure, and secret doors. Maybe even a fourth titled everything else.

Torilen wrote:Subcategories would be Scrolls

Daedalus wrote:I like Scrolls, too. Maybe each individual house-rule could be called a Passage or Secret.

Sjeng wrote:A scroll however is a seperate piece of paper with writing, so NOT inside the time per se. And it should be a subcategorie of some piece of Lore, right?

Well, I'm all for sub-categories. I even had sub-categoies in my first sketch of the Lores (called "Sections" back then :p ) at page 1.
The question is how sub-categories should work in our system, and I think it would something like this:
- If you want to write a house rule to cover a certain aspect of HeroQuest, look up the apropriate Lore in the Tome. Let's say you have an idea about searching, so refer to the Searching Lore.
- If the Lore in question has no sub-Lores, fine. Just stick to the Basic Rules / Values given in the Lore to make your house rule compatible with the Tome.
- However, if the Lore in question has sub-Lores, you must decide if you want to cover the whole Lore or just one of the sub-Lores. Searching has the sub-Lores "Searching for treasure" and "Searching for traps and secret doors".
- If you want to cover the whole Lore, you may use the sub-Lores as a template to organize your rules, but you may just as well abendom them at all. You may write a complete Searching rule wich covers the whole Searching Lore. This can still ahve separate ruled for searching for treasure and searching for traps/Sdoors, but it may also handele both of them together. As you have covered the Searching Lore as a whole, you can't use any other Searching Module with your's, even if it only covers a sub-Lore.
- If your want to cover only one (or some) of the sub-Lores, leave the main Lore as it is, and work with the Basic Rules/Values of the appropriate sub-Lore. For example, you had an idea about searching for treasure, desingned new treasure cards, and made up more detailed rules how to search for treasure in different locations. Why should you bother yourself with rules about searching secret doors? In this case your module only covers the sub-Lore of Searching for Treasure. The sub-Lore of Searching for Traps and Secret Doors is not affected. you may use another module which covers it, or just use the Original rules.
- Some sub-Lores may even have sub-sub-Lores inside. In my list above (which is of course not the last word), the Searching for Treasure Lore has the subs When to Search and How to Search. You may still decide to cover just one of them or both. For example, when you have designed new treasure cards (or a treasure table), this would only affect How to Search (the drawing of cards). If you made extra decks for searching empty rooms, furniture and tombs, you may also want to include some rules about when a hero will draw from which deck.

As for the naming, I'm with Sjeng here. "Scroll" has a nice sound to it, but I can't help beeing irritated that the scrolls are sub-sections of the Lores in a Tome...
Personally, I'd use "Chapters", Paragraphs" or the like, but "Passages", and even more "Secrets" sound also great.
By the way, I wouldn't use "Secrets" or any other special "stylish" name for the individual house rules. Stay with "modules". These are not part of the Tome! The Tome is our project and written and agreed upon by us. Then any author out there can use the Tome to make his own house rules. The Tome is a tool for house-rule authors to use. It's purpose is to provide a system to keep different house rules compatible with one another, and everyone can use it as he sees fit. We will not judge the individual modules, integrating the ones we like into the Tome, and rejecting the ones we don't like. So we simply don't integrate individual modules at all. Modules refer to the Tome. Plus, the Tome would soon become much too big and confusing, would it contain all the house rules based on it's Lores.

Daedalus wrote:We're going to need a way to organize things in threads... Ultimately, drathe as the Innekeeper may decide to open a new section to house this modular house-rule thing... We need to structure our contributions as a work in progress. Later, it may be refined as a finished thread that may not even require anything from the Innekeeper. ....

OK, you're absolutely right. I don't care about the details, but when we really start working on the different Lores, some more organized form would be helpful if not necessary.

Daedalus wrote:A final thought is I'd like this project to be on-going.

I don't want to put you down, but I think that would contradict the very purpose of the Tome, i. e. compability. An author writing a house-rule by the rules of the Tome should be sure that it will work together with all other rules that adhere to the Tome. not just the ones that are written in the same year, adhering to the same version of the Tome. :2cents:

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Re: The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby torilen » September 23rd, 2011, 3:02 pm

So...you don't like "Scrolls" name huh....well YOU CAN ALL GO TO....

Okay...just kidding.
Just as a side note. I'm glad bene took the time to write out all of those thoughts. I think he
covered most of what I would've said...I just couldn't wrap my head around the words I needed
at the time. I pretty much agree with everything...I like the outline you gave of how our
Tome would look. I do think, however, we'll need to plan out the magic section a little more
than just a main heading. There is SOOOOOO much that is/could be involved with the magic
side of HQ...I feel we need to think ahead of what could be put in there, and have it ready
ahead of time.

As far as where this can go. I don't know how drathe would feel about this - or how anyone else
would feel about this. However...I would be willing to set up another forum, to which we can
link from ye olde inn, and it would be dedicated just to the Tome. Once we have a final decision
on what the threads and all would be, I can make the forum and set up all the sections as needed.
I would set it up, and give the moderators of ye olde inn the login and password and such. I could
keep a moderator password for it, if they didn't feel like taking care of it. I would do nothing without
talking to others, first, of course...since it would still, technically, be part of ye olde inn.

Just a thought. I know drathe and phoenix and everyone...we all have busy lives.
Of course...just thinking about that option - that would be a lot of trouble getting everyone on
ye olde in set up with a login for another forum, I suppose, yes?
Oh well. It was a thought.


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Re: The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby el_flesh » September 24th, 2011, 8:30 am

So this set will wind up looking like a wiki page?

That is a very good idea.
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