Re: Advancement - how to do it?

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Do you think a Modular System of House Rules would be an advantage for us as HQ players?

Poll ended at Wednesday September 21st, 2011 2:10pm

Yes, I like the concept and would perhaps contribute to it.
7
54%
It would certainly be an advantege and I would definitely use it myself.
1
8%
I think it's a good idea, but I'm unsure about the outcome, will wait for the result.
2
15%
I will pehaps use it sometimes.
0
No votes
I'm utterly unconcerned.
1
8%
I don't like the idea, but wait for the result until I judge.
0
No votes
I don't like the idea and won't use it, but don't mind you to go on with it. To each his own!
1
8%
I openly oppose the concept. Don't restrict the fantasys of authors!
0
No votes
Nothing of the above, but generally Yes
1
8%
Nothing of the above, but generally No
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 13

The Inn's Modular System for House Rules

Postby Big Bene » Saturday September 3rd, 2011 1:00am

In Torilen's thread about Hero Advancement, a new project came to the minds of some of us. I started this thread as a place to discuss and develope it.

The general idea is to have a System on which "house rules" could be based to keep them compatible with one another. You could pick a "module" for combat, and another one for movement, and they still would work together. For further information it's best you read through the posts below. drathe has been so kind to move hither our first exchange of ideas from the original thread.

I'd also like to ask you (the community) if you would like to have such a system at all. It's a community utility, and if the community won't accept it there's no point to put work into it. The poll will last two weeks.

Any comments and ideas are welcome!
|_P
Last edited by Big Bene on Thursday September 8th, 2011 3:20am, edited 2 times in total.
Have a look ;)


Rewards:
Played a turn in a Play-by-Post game. Created a Hot Topic. Participated in three (3) Miniature Exchanges. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Big Bene

Halberdier
Halberdier
 
Posts: 1389
Images: 11
Joined: Thursday September 30th, 2010 5:23am
Location: Siebeldingen / Germany
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Advertisement

Ye Olde Inn is proudly hosted by

Proudly Hosted by MDD Hosting

Host your Website at MDD Hosting by clicking the logo above and Ye Olde Inn will receive a commission that we'll put toward keeping Ye Olde Inn online for everyone to enjoy!

Re: Advancement - how to do it?

Postby Big Bene » Saturday September 3rd, 2011 10:29am

I think the crucial issue about Advancement is not how to advance but what to advance.
In HQ, the heroes have only very few stats - attack, defense, bodypoints and mindpoints.
One could think of a system to push these stats over time, but anyone who would include a rather advanced house-rule like this will also have many other rules above and beyond the original ones, and these will differ from player (or group) to player. There could be ablilities, learned skills and talents, levels of magic, a mana pool, restricted spells, combat moves, etc, and each of these could be done with various rule approaches.
And all of these could be advanced though experience or training, so a advancement rule would have to cover them.

If we could agree upon a set of "advanced" rules here at the inn, writing a working rule for experience would be possible, but this is neither likely nor desireable. Variety is best.

Perhaps a possible (but work-intensive) solution would a community project of modular house-rules (Inn-rules), of which everyone can take/leave what he wants, but which are all compatible.
Have a look ;)


Rewards:
Played a turn in a Play-by-Post game. Created a Hot Topic. Participated in three (3) Miniature Exchanges. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Big Bene

Halberdier
Halberdier
 
Posts: 1389
Images: 11
Joined: Thursday September 30th, 2010 5:23am
Location: Siebeldingen / Germany
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Advancement - how to do it?

Postby Daedalus » Saturday September 3rd, 2011 9:35pm

Big Bene wrote:Perhaps a possible (but work-intensive) solution would a community project of modular house-rules (Inn-rules), of which everyone can take/leave what he wants, but which are all compatible.

Sounds interesting. I like the modular idea. For compatibility purposes, I'd suggest only HeroQuest dice should be used in a community house-rule. But I'm jumping the gun, here.
..
UNCLE ZARGON
Image
WANTS.. YOU


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Played a turn in five (5) Play-by-Post games. Created a Hot Topic. Slain a measly Goblin! Slaughtered an Orc! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy!Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered all eight (8) Game System monsters. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Editor-in-Chief
Daedalus
Slacker Ruleslawyer

Wizard
Wizard
 
Posts: 3210
Images: 14
Joined: Monday May 9th, 2011 2:31pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group Member Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Advancement - how to do it?

Postby torilen » Sunday September 4th, 2011 5:20pm

sadkitchen wrote:
I should very much like the opportunity one day to test Ken's sausage!
If a sentence ever needed grammatical edit, it's this one. :roll:

Seriously just laughed out loud.

Didn't even notice that until you pointed it out. Now I'll have mental pictures in my head that I'll never get rid of. Thanks a lot :)

-SadKitchen


Yeah - I just laughed out loud too - that is just too funny.

@bene - I love the idea of a compatible, modular thing for rules here on the inn. Yes...we would have to stick with the HQ combat dice,
and simple d6's (as the system did come with 2 of those and used them often). It would require a lot of thought on the part of us all,
but could end up in a wonderful addition to the forum, and to the game itself.

As far as simple advancement that adds on top of the simple rules in the basic system - I've actually been working on that - have been
for a while, but leave it and come back to it quite often. I've basically just written advancement rules for gaining more Body point, more
Mind Points, increasing attack and defense, and gaining more spells. I did include a couple of special combat techniques, but nothing
that really changes the rules much. I also included advancement (and the gaining of) disarming traps and picking locks (a new rule).
The only main difference is that I split the weapons and armors into classes, and there is advancement for gaining new weapon and
armor usage. OH...and armors require a casting check...the wizard and elf can use them, but at a price. However, advance enough
and the price is not as great.

I'll have it finished soon, and I'll post it.


Rewards:
Hosted a Play-by-Post game. Played a turn in a Play-by-Post game. Wrote an article for the Blog. Created a Hot Topic.
torilen

Swordsman
Swordsman
 
Posts: 1849
Joined: Friday October 9th, 2009 4:18am
Location: Virginia, USA
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member Scribes Group Member

Re: Advancement - how to do it?

Postby sadkitchen » Sunday September 4th, 2011 5:31pm

I love the idea of a compatible, modular thing for rules here on the inn. Yes...we would have to stick with the HQ combat dice,
and simple d6's (as the system did come with 2 of those and used them often). It would require a lot of thought on the part of us all,
but could end up in a wonderful addition to the forum, and to the game itself.


I'm in. This might take a while though :) Hope you brought cookies.

-SadKitchen
sadkitchen

Ogre Champion
Ogre Champion
 
Posts: 175
Joined: Sunday April 10th, 2011 3:25pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Advancement - how to do it?

Postby Big Bene » Monday September 5th, 2011 7:29am

"Daedalus wrote:Sounds interesting. I like the modular idea. For compatibility purposes, I'd suggest only HeroQuest dice should be used in a community house-rule. But I'm jumping the gun, here.

@bene - I love the idea of a compatible, modular thing for rules here on the inn. Yes...we would have to stick with the HQ combat dice,
and simple d6's (as the system did come with 2 of those and used them often). It would require a lot of thought on the part of us all,
but could end up in a wonderful addition to the forum, and to the game itself.

I'm in. This might take a while though :) Hope you brought cookies.


OK, guys, let's have a closer look on this whole thing:

Dice:
only HeroQuest dice should be used

Nope. This was one of my first thoughts, too, but it turns out that restricting dice types is utterly irrelevant for compabililty. One could easily write a, let's say, rule for magic, which needs to use a d100 for it's own purposes without interfering with other rules at all.
Have it all working with the original HQ dice would be elegant and also practical for those players who don't own other dice, but it's not mandatory. I would keep it as a advice, but not as a rule.

What I think we need to do is:

Rule sections:
We have to define a set of aspects or "chapters" of the rules, for example Movement, Combat, Searching and, to keep up with the thread topic, Advancement (I will give a more elaborate outline below).
I'm still thinking of a better name - "aspects", "chapters" and "sections" all sound lousy :p , any suggestion is welcome!
These would serve as "slots" for the modules. For example, there could be various different modules how to handle Magic, and a group would choose one of them to "fit" the Magic "slot" of their house rules.

Basic values:
For each of this "rule sections" we would have to agree upon one or more "Basic values". This could be values that are already part of the original rules or ones we would have to make up. For example we could decide that Mind points are the basic value of magic.

Every module can build up on this basic value as the author seems fitting, but he has to use this same basic value.
To keep with our example, one could write a (overly) elaborated module of Magic rules that uses spell levels, a mana pool and a concentration check for every use of magic, but the author would have to base all this on the Mind points.

The purpose of this is, well, compability. When another module affects magic (for example a piece of equipment that enhances magic or a Movement module that gives penalties when running in this turn), this module just states how it affects the Mind points, and so will accordingly affect the magic, regardless of how magic is ruled in detail.
To give another example: Let's say, we decide that a module ruling Abilities (which are not part of the original HQ game system, but perhaps some people would like to include), must be based upon a value we call "Knowledge". Now, if someone wants to write an Advancement module, he has only to think how and when to icrease the Knowledge value, and not how to handle the different possible rules for Abilities.

Basic rules:
Some of the "sections" may require not only basic values, but also basic rules on how to handle them. Every module can make it's own more elaborated rules, but has to base them upon the appropriate basic rule. Can't think of an example right now, but very probably this will be necessary at some point.

Keeping the Game System in mind:
Of course, our "modular system" may never violate the original HQ rules. It must be possible to have "modules" that fit into our system and make up for a set of rules that define gameplay absolutely similar to the game system, or else there'S something wrong with our modular system.

Draft of possible "rule sections":
As for now, I would think of dividing the rules into the following "sections" (better name! please!). This is only a first draft. Some additional point may be neccesarry, whereas some of my poionts may be superflous.

- Rules that handle the sequence of playing
- Movement rules
- Combat rules
__Basic values should be the Attack and Defense stats. A module could for example use different values for meele and range attacks, but both should be based upon the one Attack base value (perhaps Meele Attack = Base Attack +1, Range Attack = Base Attack - 1 for the fighters, and the other way round for the elf).
- Searching rules
--- Rules that handle when and what to search
____For example, in the Game System heroes may search a room at a time for treasue or traps/seret doors, whereas my own system of Different card decks for different situations has rules when and where to search empty rooms, furniture, graves and the corpses of the fallen.
--- Rules that handle how to search
For example, in the Game System the players draw cards when searching treasure, whereas in my system they also draw cards, but from different decks. Other modules may include tables or dice.
- Magic rules
__In the Game System, the magic abilities of the spell users is allways the same, so no "value" is needed, but every module taking a more elaborate approach, should use the Mind points as the Basic Value (of course this is just a thought of me, not a final word).
- Rules for using equipment
__(could be divided into weapons/armor and other equipment to include house rules that handle weopon breakage etc.)
- Experience rules
__(would handle every type of advancement of the heroes over time, by experience, training or otherwise. Would call it "experience" ratehr than "advancement" nonetheless, as to avoid confusion with "advenced rules" or "advanced HQ" or any other case of advancing something else than hero stats).
- Rules handling abilities
- Vision and light rules
- Rules handling traps
- Rules handling extraordnary situations (falling, swimming etc.)

Of course there could be modules that fit into none of these categories. New categories could be added everytime, but should be agreed upon by the community to keep them "compatible". There also could be a category "Other rules", in which every module could be put that is too special to fit into one of the standard slots or to justify a new one. This "Other rules" category should have some Basic Rules to make sure the modules wouldn't interfere with other ones.

My :2cents:
|_P
Have a look ;)


Rewards:
Played a turn in a Play-by-Post game. Created a Hot Topic. Participated in three (3) Miniature Exchanges. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Big Bene

Halberdier
Halberdier
 
Posts: 1389
Images: 11
Joined: Thursday September 30th, 2010 5:23am
Location: Siebeldingen / Germany
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Advancement - how to do it?

Postby torilen » Monday September 5th, 2011 9:24am

that looks great bene - looks like someone has been wanting to do this for a while, yes?

I don't really see any problem with using the term "chapters" or "sections"...but that's just me.
We can work on coming up with more "Heroquest-sounding" terms.

I could agree that, perhaps, restricting the dice to only HQ dice might be problematic...but might I offer
this suggestion. If someone does use other types of dice, they could maybe try to work out a way for others
to use their rule while still using the HQ dice. Not necessarily an absolute requirement...maybe just a note
in the project that could be a courtesy to other fans.
Just a thought.

I think I understand your thoughts on Basic Values vs. Abilities. This would be the difference between something that
effects a character body points vs. something that effects the characters attack through greater strength, right?
My first question would be this, then: Are we going to stick with only Body Points and Mind Point for basic values?
I only ask because I've played around with including Spirit Points, as well. I've been able to work around it, without
needing it, but its a thought. For example...there are many fan characters that are priest/paladin types...these would
typically need a Spirit Point for their abilities...just as the wizard needs Mind Points.
Now...I've worked around it like this: Using your differentiation of value vs. ability. My current Priest simply has certain
abilities that are "priest-like", and he can increase them through training, but it doesn't not require a Spirit point to do so.

I like your thoughts on the "section" outline...let me toss in my two cents:
I would use this, in this order:
- Sequence of Play
- Basic Values
- Abilities
- Movement
- Actions (Falling, Swimming, Jumping, Climbing)
- Vison/Light Rules
- Trap Search/Secret Door Search
- Trap Disarming (Lock Picking??)
- Treasure Search
- Equipment Use (or, split into Weapon Use, Armor Use, Equipment Use)
- Combat
- Magic
- Experience/Advancement
- Other

And, maybe...perhaps, drathe could help us out??? Once we come to an agreement on what the "sections" should be and what order...
perhaps there could be a new forum thread to use...not sure where it could be. I think it would make it a lot easier for people to
look through the new "compatible rules" and add to them if they were in their own little section.
Might be a week or two before we get to that point...so, drathe, if you're reading...not yet. :)
We want to make sure we get plenty of input on this first, right?


Rewards:
Hosted a Play-by-Post game. Played a turn in a Play-by-Post game. Wrote an article for the Blog. Created a Hot Topic.
torilen

Swordsman
Swordsman
 
Posts: 1849
Joined: Friday October 9th, 2009 4:18am
Location: Virginia, USA
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member Scribes Group Member

Re: Advancement - how to do it?

Postby sadkitchen » Monday September 5th, 2011 9:55am

So I had just started to compile a list of different rules when it was suggested that just the advancement rules be gathered together, and I realized that I would like a list of all the different variants on all rules, not just advancement. I happen to be in a discussion on Hero Movement (find it here: http://www.yeoldeinn.com/hqforum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=832) and have compiled the different variant rules suggested so far.
NOTE: If I have somehow misinterpreted/mistyped your variant please let me know immediately.

Hero Movement

Core Rule
A Hero rolls 2 Red Dice to determine how many square spaces he can move each turn. A Hero wearing Plate Mail only rolls 1 Red Die to determine movement.

Variant 1 (posted by gravallon)
Each hero has a modifier to there move score. This is added to a roll of 2 Red Dice to determine how many square spaces he can move each turn. A Hero wearing Plate Mail only rolls 1 Red Die to determine movement, but still gains his full modifier.
Barbarian: +2
Dwarf : +0
Elf: +1
Wizard: +3

Variant 2 (posted by Ethica) (The Plate Mail portion was added by me, SadKitchen, and is awaiting confirmation or rejection by Ethica)
Each hero can move up to 7 square spaces each turn. A hero wearing Plate Mail only can move 4 square space a turn.

Variant 3 (posted by Daedalus)
The Barbarian can move up to 9 square spaces each turn, 7 if he is wearing Chain Mail, and 5 if he is wearing Plate Mail.
The Dwarf can move up to 7 square spaces each turn, 6 if he is wearing Chain Mail, and 5 if he is wearing Plate Mail.
The Elf can move up to 8 square spaces each turn, 6 if he is wearing Chain Mail, and 4 if he is wearing Plate Mail.
The Wizard can move up to 8 square spaces each turn.

Variant 4 (posted by SadKitchen) <- That's me so use this one :D
If there are no monsters on the board when a Hero starts his turn he can move up to 12 square spaces that turn. If there are any monsters on the board that Hero uses the Core Rules for determining how many square spaces he can move.

Variant 5 (posted by Daedalus)
Each hero rolls 1 Red Die and modifies it by the following, depending on which Hero he is and what armor he is wearing.
Barbarian: Unarmored +5, Chain Mail +3, Plate Mail +1
Dwarf: Unarmored +3, Chain Mail +2, Plate Mail +1
Elf: Unarmored +4, Chain Mail +2, Plate Mail +0
Wizard: Unarmored or Robed +4

Variant 6 (posted by Joec)
While monsters are on the board Heroes use the Core Rules to determine how many square spaces they can move. If there are no monsters on the board and the Heroes can agree upon a destination, the Heroes can place there miniatures at the agreed upon destination. All traps between where the Heroes started and their ending destination are triggered and all Heroes take damage from each trap sprung, even if normally the trap would only target one Hero.

Variant 7 (posted by El_Flesh)
At the beginning of each turn a Hero gains a number of Action Points to spend on all types of actions. Moving is done at a cost of 1 Action Point per square space.
sadkitchen

Ogre Champion
Ogre Champion
 
Posts: 175
Joined: Sunday April 10th, 2011 3:25pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Advancement - how to do it?

Postby Big Bene » Monday September 5th, 2011 11:59am

torilen wrote:that looks great bene - looks like someone has been wanting to do this for a while, yes?

Not really. But I actually had plans in mind to do a modular PNP RPG for quite some time now, so I had indeed thought about those problems for a while.

If someone does use other types of dice, they could maybe try to work out a way for others
to use their rule while still using the HQ dice. Not necessarily an absolute requirement...maybe just a note
in the project that could be a courtesy to other fans.

Yep, that's what I meant by "advice".

I think I understand your thoughts on Basic Values vs. Abilities. This would be the difference between something that
effects a character body points vs. something that effects the characters attack through greater strength, right?

No! :o
Sorry if I didn't make this clear enough!
By "Abilities" I only mean a possible module one could wirte. It would existi besides, and at the same level as, Movement, Magic, Combat, and so on. The "Abilities" module would have rules for learnable abilities such as swimming, horseriding, reading/writing, identifying artefacts, lockpicking etc. Just like the "Abilities" lists in Pen-and-Paper games like D&D. There is no such system in the original HQ rules, but I thought we should have a "slot" for such a module in case someone would want to write it (Phoenix' Academy takes some steps in this direction).
Basic Values on the other hand are a much more fundamental priciple of the modular system. Every "section" (including Abilities!) must have Basic Values. These are fixed and stay the same for every module. A module then takes these Basic Values and builds up it's internal stats upon them. These stats may be called "secondary values", "attributes" or the like, but not "abilities".

My first question would be this, then: Are we going to stick with only Body Points and Mind Point for basic values?
I only ask because I've played around with including Spirit Points, as well. I've been able to work around it, without
needing it, but its a thought. For example...there are many fan characters that are priest/paladin types...these would
typically need a Spirit Point for their abilities...just as the wizard needs Mind Points.

Of course not. As I already said, we could make up other "Basic Values". "Spirit points" for priests would be a good example. The point is to always stick to the same set of Basic Values. Which these are to be, is still open to debate.

I like your thoughts on the "section" outline...let me toss in my two cents:
I would use this, in this order:
- Sequence of Play
- Basic Values
- Abilities
- Movement
- Actions (Falling, Swimming, Jumping, Climbing)
- Vison/Light Rules
- Trap Search/Secret Door Search
- Trap Disarming (Lock Picking??)
- Treasure Search
- Equipment Use (or, split into Weapon Use, Armor Use, Equipment Use)
- Combat
- Magic
- Experience/Advancement
- Other

Good approach
(only the Basic Values are wrong here - Basic Values are not a "section" of their own, but every section must have Basic Values).

And, maybe...perhaps, drathe could help us out??? Once we come to an agreement on what the "sections" should be and what order...
perhaps there could be a new forum thread to use...not sure where it could be. I think it would make it a lot easier for people to
look through the new "compatible rules" and add to them if they were in their own little section.
Might be a week or two before we get to that point...so, drathe, if you're reading...not yet. :)
We want to make sure we get plenty of input on this first, right?

Perhaps our way to go could be like this:
- Make a poll to check if such a project is accepted/backed/desired by the community at all. After all, it's meant to be an "Inn rule", and if there's no common interest, there's little point to it. Leave the final decission to drathe.
- If OK, we will discuss the modular system here at the Inn (perhaps at a dedicated thread/forum), each giving his contributions, first of which should be a preamble in which we state that these are not compulsatory rules, not even in the inn, but just a system to provide a playable set of house-rules.
- We set a deadline of about three months to finish the final "official" version.
- drathe as our Inn-keeper will decide if he accepts the system, wants to include some changes, or outright reject it. He can use a communitiy poll to decide, this is up to him.

Edit:
I see now a point where I obviousely was misunderstandable... :bites-lip:
In my list I used a single stroke "-" for the main entrys ("rule sections"), multiple strokes "---" for subentrys (like the two subentrys under "Searching rules"), and underlines "__" for comments that belong to the entry above. So when I wrote:
"- Combat rules
__Basic values should be the Attack and Defense stats."
I didn't mean that Attack and Defense should be the Basic Values for the whole system, but I just made a comment to "Combat rules", meaning that Attack and Defense should be the Basic Values for Combat.
Last edited by Big Bene on Monday September 5th, 2011 2:27pm, edited 2 times in total.
Have a look ;)


Rewards:
Played a turn in a Play-by-Post game. Created a Hot Topic. Participated in three (3) Miniature Exchanges. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Big Bene

Halberdier
Halberdier
 
Posts: 1389
Images: 11
Joined: Thursday September 30th, 2010 5:23am
Location: Siebeldingen / Germany
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Advancement - how to do it?

Postby Big Bene » Monday September 5th, 2011 12:12pm

@Sadkitchen:
I think the "Basic rule" should be something like

"The Basic Value for Movement rules is a new stat named "Movement", that is a fixed value given to a hero or opponent according to his/her race and profession. For the original heroes this is:
Barbarian: X
Dwarf: X
Elf: X
Wizard: X
A Movement module may modify or replace these values with fixed or random numbers, but it must always be based on the "Movement" value. This may include reducing the Movement value to zero and only use a dice roll, as in the original Game System. A module wich introduces new races or professions or alters the original ones, must give Movement values for it's new hero or monster type(s), but not interfere with movement rules in any other way".

Every rule above this, including when and how the movement is randomized, is up to the individual modules.
Have a look ;)


Rewards:
Played a turn in a Play-by-Post game. Created a Hot Topic. Participated in three (3) Miniature Exchanges. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Big Bene

Halberdier
Halberdier
 
Posts: 1389
Images: 11
Joined: Thursday September 30th, 2010 5:23am
Location: Siebeldingen / Germany
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Next

Return to General HeroQuest Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests