Sigill / Udren / Bard rules in The Spirit Queen's Torment

[HispaZargon]

[Discussion moved here by HispaZargon from thread THE SPIRIT QUEEN'S TORMENT discussion]

I would like to open a discussion about the following topic that (surprisingly) I think has not been still treated at all in the Inn:

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think that all the rules around Sigill, Udren and the Bard are a mess as described in the quesbook.

First of all, the questbook general rules says that once the heroes have rescued the scout Sigill, if a hero dies, he/she must be replaced by the Bard hero, ok... but does it mean that Sigill is a Bard? If yes, should Sigill have the same stats, equipment and spells as the Bard hero when rescued? If not, makes any sense the new Bard hero appearance rule once a hero dies in presence of Sigill?

Sigill is rescued by the heroes mostly at the end of Q3 but it is not confirmed anywhere if he also accompains or not the heroes in the subsequent quests. If no, makes any sense the new Bard hero appearance rule once a hero dies if Sigill is not further present? OR if yes, makes any sense the Udren's sentence "Sigill sent you?" in Q5 ?

And about Udren... what are her stats? I think they are just the ones from a regular Orc, however, in the questbook general rules she is also mentioned (in brackets) in the "Bard Hero and dying" paragraph... so, is Udren also a Bard?? If a hero dies, does the same rule appy with Udren like with Siggil presence, and the hero must be replaced by a Bard hero?? Then, if Udren is also a bard... does she takes also the same starting equipment as the bard when rescued, even if the questbook notes do note say it?

In my opinion, Sigill is a bard but he only appears in Q3, the only one when a dead hero must be replaced by the Bard. I know it is only at the end of the quest but... and about Udren, I understand she is just a regular Orc. This interpretation mostly fits wwith everything as written in the questbook, I think.

Opinions?

[Anderas]

Maybe it would be worth to put it in an extra discussion thread?

[Kurgan]

I would like to open a discussion about the following topic that (surprisingly) I think has not been still treated at all in the Inn:

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think that all the rules around Sigill, Udren and the Bard are a mess as described in the quesbook.

First of all, the questbook general rules says that once the heroes have rescued the scout Sigill, if a hero dies, he/she must be replaced by the Bard hero, ok... but does it mean that Sigill is a Bard? If yes, should Sigill have the same stats, equipment and spells as the Bard hero when rescued? If not, makes any sense the new Bard hero appearance rule once a hero dies in presence of Sigill?

It's kind of vague at first glance, but I read it as the intention is NOT to use the Bard as anything more than either a hero from the start (one of the four*) or a replacement for the first hero who dies in the campaign. By "dies" I mean as in dies for good, not revives with a potion, so he's like an "extra life" for someone.

The other "Orc allies" use any regular Orc figure (you have four sculpts to choose from in the base game, and five in the Mythic which this was included in so easily accomplished to make them stand out even without painting) and have the exact same stats as a regular Orc. If there would be any change it would be that they defend with white shields (as all heroic allies like mercenaries do in official quests thus far). Prior to them being recruited they would be treated like regular enemy Orcs (Mage of the Mirror featured monsters who turn into good guys if certain conditions are met). The allies continue to follow the heroes until they die or the text says they're no longer available. Considering they have only 1 body point, I wouldn't expect them to last long if they are entered into combat (the EU exclusive WOM featured 1 BP mercenaries).

Using the Bard in place of one of these Orcs is tempting, but it would throw everything off if you were already using the Bard either as a base hero or a replacement, so I would go with the more probable interpretation that you use ordinary Orc figures for these characters (with no special abilities whatsoever). And yes, other Orcs can attack them, and once they are made your allies you can't attack them (with Orc's bane or anything else).

I would treat these Orcs just like Sir Ragnar (except they have the ability to fight). Fixed movement, stats exactly like on the Orc monster card. Spells would affect them as if they were a Hero or Mercenary. They have only 1 body point, so you couldn't really "heal" them, but...

You could give them a potion of healing (or two or three) that they could use to save themselves from dying as well (based upon notes from "Into the Northlands" bonus online quest even though that was written later). They could open doors like any Merc could but not search for anything or keep any treasure (but they could gather the belongings of another Hero who died in the same room/corridor as themselves to be given to another hero or saved for the next adventure). If all the heroes die except the friendly orc, what happens? Unless the text says otherwise, I would treat it similarly to the mercenaries... if the hero player who was controlling them wants to continue, they can try to finish the quest with just that character or give up and remove them from the board. But since they are treated as being important for the adventure I would say as long as another hero still lives, they would not be removed from the board unless killed. They can't really use equipment (same as mercenaries) since they have just their fixed starting abilities, but you could cast magic on them. Could you hand them a spell scroll or other artifact that they could use? Into the Northlands suggests this isn't intended, unless the item is specifically for such characters (but of course Zargon can make whatever ruling he likes, if they wanted to hand a spell scroll to the Orc ally). And that's really the bottom line here, if you have your heart set on using the Bard figure to represent this friendly Orc, nobody is stopping you.

Actually I could think of one scenario in which you could have five heroes in a game... let's say someone dies for good and gets replaced by the Bard. Still four heroes. Then at some point you find the Elixir of Life and use it to bring back the dead hero (depending upon how you think the Elixir artifact should work... strict rules on this are never given in any of the official quests so far) now you have five. What happens to the Bard? Presumably the player who had his hero die now has two heroes to control (unless you want to say the Bard just "runs away" or something, never to be seen again?). Now as to whether the Elixir is ever found in this pack... it can be found in (SPOILERS) quest 11. Presumably if you had the Elixir and didn't want to use the Bard you'd just get your normal hero back right away, but then I could imagine a player wanting a bonus and asking Zargon to let him do that.

* No special rules have been given for using the various other bonus/alternate heroes more than the Bard. However various clues are that any of these heroes are meant to replace one of the existing four (most quests are designed for four heroes, they recommend against using less than four heroes except in the few solo quests in certain expansions as this greatly increases the difficulty and the game is still "2-5 players"). While HeroQuest, in my view can certainly function with more than four heroes (Frozen Horror and Wizards of Morcar were designed with Mercenaries in mind, meaning the heroes could theoretically have an additional 12 body points of mercs with them, even more in the remake of Frozen Horror which would have 24 and since it's such a hard pack that doesn't seem unreasonable). The HeroQuest Companion App is not a perfect judge of what is intended and possible in HQ but it only lets you have four heroes and only one of each character type at a time though you can use up to 12 mercs in FH and you will be able to use those mercs in MOTM too when it is eventually added as the quest book reflects. Which hero should the Bard replace if you are sticking to only four starting heroes? That's up to you to decide. No specific direction is given! I've played with more than four heroes before and it tends to make the game take longer. Of course any time a human player is controlling more than one character, their turns are bound to take longer (especially if those are spell casters, as the Bard is, rather than "pure" combat characters).

[HispaZargon]

Ok, so you think that Sigill and Udren are not bards, correct?

[HispaZargon]

Please, any more opinions / thoughts / interpretations about this topic? Thanks.

[Kurgan]

I know I already posted, but to me they are not Bards, no reason to think so from the text. However, if you WANT them to be, you can easily do it. But unless you own multiple Mythic sets, you will be using proxies for this. Weaving a story wherein the Bards are kind of a recurring type within the campaign could be interesting if you put it there.

Should they have Bard magic and/or weapons? That can work...

When you rescue the Orc ally... go ahead and assign them the same three "spells" that the Orc Bard would have (even if you don't have enough cards for it), but keep their stats the same as a regular (monster) Orc. Sure, why not? They will be much more powerful, but easy to die. Healing Song could be used to keep yourself from dying at 0 body points (ONCE!). Should they attack with Rapiers? Keep in mind Orcs normally attack with THREE combat dice. You could say they have one as a backup weapon, meaning they can alternately do a diagonal attack that is only 2 dice.

Should they roll 2 red dice to move instead of having the fixed movement of an Orc? Again, you can do this if you wish.

I personally wouldn't do this, but I could see it working. Should they have the exact stats as the Bard hero? Sure, like I said, if you want to. But I don't think this was intended. If you want an excuse to use the Bard, the sky is the limit. I personally think he would be an interesting NPC, but the rescued Orcs I would use regular Orc figures, just as I wouldn't use a special figure for the Elf monster allies in MOTM (spoilers?).

Why wouldn't I make the rescued Orc allies identical to the Bard Hero (using proxy miniatures)? Because that would be an extremely powerful ally, making the quest much easier. Instead it seems the intention was to make a weak ally that can help but wouldn't turn the tide... someone you have to protect (similar to Sir Ragnar, or at best, like a low level mercenary, think of the weak ones found in the EU quests). On one hand you have someone who can charge into battle and possibly win on their own if they are skilled, vs. someone who has to hang around and rely on the main heroes to support them. It drastically changes the play style. I get it that people are looking for excuses to use the Bard miniature, again, do what you want at your table! But if the day arrives when this quest gets added to the Companion App (may it be so!), I would imagine that you'd just see a regular Orc icon with a different colored ring around it to show the "ally" with normal Orc stats. But, positively, since the App uses the honor system for so many things, you can ignore what the screen says, adjust their stats, add whatever abilities you like, etc.

[HispaZargon]

Thanks Kurgan, always welcome.

[Kurgan]

Another thing you could do is say that they are a Bard (in terms of stats, but use normal Orc miniature), but have been wounded (and are down to 1 BP), forcing you to heal them to make them the strength of the "hero" version?

[HispaZargon]

Yes, interesting solution... I will think more about it.