• Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Kurgan » January 16th, 2021, 5:05 am

Davane wrote:
Pancho wrote:I consider the Marvel special and the White Dwarf Quests canon too. The quests from the novels are semi-canon I guess. The Dark Company is another official one, which is like a side story and fits in anywhere towards the end without any problems.


Don't let Kurgan hear you say that? He doesn't do GW in his games... :P


I do actually, but no more than the game actually provides me. :ugeek:

The WD quests are canon, because GW had to actually get permission from MB to release those articles. That's why both are essentially variants of the AHQ adventures in the same issues. GW also had to get permission to use any artwork registered to HQ, such as the cover art to HQ, KK, and RotWL, even though Les Edwards was a GW artist at that time. They were also rooted in the Warhammer World, but only in limited ways, so as to not outright state that HQ was in the Warhammer World and could be confused as GW IP.


Well, everything licensed is automatically canon? That's not true in every franchise, but they have a higher level of officialness than some "contest winner featured" content creation. All of the Hero Quest stuff that was published outside of fanzines, fan pages and forums like this had to get permission.

Chances are that the WD content will be conveniently ignored in NuHQ, and no longer considered canon if a new canon from Hasbro comes into being. GW owns the articles, not Hasbro, so this content cannot be officially used for HQ.


That's why I'll argue with you now, and then take your side when they do that.

From what I see of the MWS, it looks like Marvel got permission from GW, rather than MB, to use HQ and AHQ in that publication. As such, the MWS will probably be treated the same as the WD articles.


It was enjoyable. I still get to create my own characters!


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie!
User avatar
Channeler
Kurgan

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5989
Images: 85
Joined: February 23rd, 2019, 7:08 pm
Location: https://discord.gg/2R9pEP4cty
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Scribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberChampion Group Member

Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Re: How many more novels am I gonna write??

Postby Shadzar » January 16th, 2021, 5:42 pm

Kurgan wrote:there are debates on here and exchanges, ultimately there's a mutual respect and tolerance of different visions


This is or was key to everything PRIOR to 2020. That is when they wished to change the core game, and where a lot of this thread comes from. GW can be removed for legal reasons, but are they going to replace it with something else that doesnt fit? That is what people do NOT want. Make the base game the same for everyone as existed when the game came out. Change later things as you wishin the "expansions" that people can choose to use or not. Just don't force changes that people don't see as making sense to the core game system just to placate a different games audience. Meaning don't inject modern D&D tropes into a game based on 1980s D&D.

Then everyone can modify there base game from 1990s or 2021 the same way they have been doing, and new people can modify their base game when they get it to whatever they want. It is the forced change unto everyone where the "respect" is lost. Because if you dont agree with the new group, they will cancel you, call you Istaphobes, and say you should be gotten rid of. That isn't any form of respect being offered to them, and in return they get the same level of respect that they give.

Make the game what you want at your own table, but you have NO right to dictate how others play or think. That is the big picture of most of the complaints about the new design team and potential design direction. That is the mutual respect gamers used to have with the exception of some outliers, and that mutual respect is being lost by those telling others they don't have a right to play or think in any way that doesnt fit the most modern gaming mindset or ideologies.... the 2020 controversy mindset and playstyle.

Cyhtialee for example has tried to force the "new meta" as it were, without thinking that she/he can change it for themselves, it must be changed for everyone and must agree with them. That is no respect at all. http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=5459&start=220#p107811
Shadzar

Ogre Chieftain
Ogre Chieftain
 
Posts: 212
Joined: November 15th, 2020, 10:08 am
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon

Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Kurgan » January 16th, 2021, 9:12 pm

Is classic Hero Quest cancelled? Did it go away all of a sudden? Is it going to expire this Fall so it can no longer be played or collected? No? Good, I didn't think such a thing was possible. :mrgreen:

Even if the Remake turns out to be my new favorite thing, I'd never throw out my old set or stop enjoying it just because another version exists, would you? This isn't like an online video game where they can "force" you to upgrade or not play at all.

Until the game comes out and we can pick it apart with a set of tweezer, a magnifying glass and a fine tooth comb... these fears will exist. I'm confident (based on nothing, I know, I could be completely wrong) that the only real changes are the one's we've already seen:

1) Chaos Warriors are now called Dread Warriors and lack the little round things on their helmets.
2) Chaos Warlock is now called Dread Sorcerer and carries a staff.
3) Miniature designs include female versions of monsters and Heroes (all but the Female Elf, are "pulse bonuses" which I guess means exclusive to those who order through the website, as opposed to, we presume, buying it in an actual store). Designs play around with the weapons held by characters and their overall design (looking more like modern video game incarnations for example the Orcs look like the Orcs in World of Warcraft, rather than Warhammer fantasy orcs).
4) Fimirs are replaced with a new type of Gillman/fish monster called an "Abomination."
5) New art-style re-creation of everything.
6) EU style equipment cards instead of Armory "Menu" board.
7) promised extra "equipments" based on EU exclusive items (Holy Water, Bracers, Hand Axe confirmed so far)

Other than that, the "new content" seems to be confined to the "unlocks" which ONLY go to those who pledged the "Mythic Tier" (the bigger $150 set with KK & ROTWL remakes, the "Heroic Tier" doesn't have these)
A) 3 "New" Heroes with their own spell cards and character stat cards.
B) Two new quest books with at least 4 (maybe 20???) new quests.

A&B are the source of controversy here. But keep in mind, not everyone will even get these. The only "tweak" is the name substitutions and I will be missing the male Elf (since he's shoved into the "Pulse bonus" Heroes pack).

I object far more to the "Mentor" Wizard alternate miniature who is identified as Mentor, rather than Zargon (as an NA player, he's always been Zargon, we never see Mentor's face in our version) than having a female goblin or orc. All of the alternate female monsters (other than the orc and goblin) are part of the "unlocks" too by the way. EU players never got these (one female character appeared in the ROTWL expansion, Kessandria the witch queen... although if you're a strict believer in the "Warhammer fantasy" connection, then any spell casting Fimirs in Kellar's Keep are probably female too). A few appeared in published Quests (mostly in Brazil) and in the NA exclusive expansions (EQP, BQP) and of course the Japanese game system. The sequel to the PC version (Hero Quest II: Legacy of Sorasil) featured some extra Heroes (two of them female). So if that is the issue, I don't have a problem with it... in the Q&A they promised only minor rule clarifications and tweaks to the original quests (as re-iterated in the Q&A). So far so good...

So let's not assume that there's a "woke SJW agenda" set to explode in all our faces when we open the box in Fall 2021. But before you buy, check the "non-sponsored" reviews. Believe me, you will hear about it on these forums. The thing is, this game is so open ended that if you wanted your game to be some kind of PC-fest, you could easily do that, and if you didn't want that in your game, same difference. Obviously all of us I think can agree if "Prophecy of Telor" and "The Spirit Queen's Torment" suck, we will be modifying and/or ignoring those when the games arrive, for those of us who spent the extra money for the Mythic tier. Hopefully they still provide good content that can be tweaked or inspired even more good ideas from fans.

Some people have a bad attitude when it comes to disagreements. I see the thread you linked and it came across more as teasing than some kind of flame war started. I think we all need to calm down. More will get done by sending constructive emails to Hasbro and Avalon Hill than sniping at each other in the forums. Notice how patient I've been with people who think my ideas are crap? And I try not to tear down those who have ideas I disagree with. We're still talking about a board game.. that last I checked, can't actually be "ruined" by some fans or even by the company that now owns it, since the real thing lives on. Even so, there's been no indication that the Remake is going to "ruin" anything. It's just that some people have this idea of "canon" that is going to set them up for frustration one way or another.

My advice to those people is to take a larger view, look at the big picture. When you survey the history of Hero Quest (not Warhammer, D&D or any other related or unrelated franchise), you'll see that we've lived through a long period of having multiple, contradictory "canons" of this game and nobody had their fun ruined. Just because I know that the EU version and the Japanese version and the Brazilian version, etc. exist, doesn't mean my NA game sessions have to play out any differently than I would have in 1990, or now with my various house rules I've come up with with the help of friends, family, and YES (in big part) the feedback and inspiration of you good people at the Inn.

What's the sense in getting fired up and angry for 7 or 8 months, when we have nothing to really go on as far as stuff that is going to suck? I don't really like the Orc Bard, but I don't hate it. I just don't see myself using it much, if at all the way it was "intended." But apart from the character itself (it's mostly the design, like many of the designs that I think are a bit off for this game), we don't know HOW it fits in (if at all) to the new scenarios. We're all guessing there are quests designed with him in mind. I highly doubt they re-wrote the classic remade quests (all 34 of them) to somehow incorporate this guy. Instead he's just there to swap out for another Hero if you really want to. If I'm wrong about that, then show me the evidence... so far there is none available. So why worry?

Write your letters to Hasbro/Avalon with your concerns. That will do much more than complaining here, I promise (social media was made for controversies and complaining though). I'm not a moderator, I can't stop anybody of course, that's just my advice. :2cents:


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie!
User avatar
Channeler
Kurgan

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5989
Images: 85
Joined: February 23rd, 2019, 7:08 pm
Location: https://discord.gg/2R9pEP4cty
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Scribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberChampion Group Member

Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Davane » January 16th, 2021, 11:12 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Davane wrote:
Pancho wrote:I consider the Marvel special and the White Dwarf Quests canon too. The quests from the novels are semi-canon I guess. The Dark Company is another official one, which is like a side story and fits in anywhere towards the end without any problems.


Don't let Kurgan hear you say that? He doesn't do GW in his games... :P


I do actually, but no more than the game actually provides me. :ugeek:


So, none then... :P

Kurgan wrote:
The WD quests are canon, because GW had to actually get permission from MB to release those articles. That's why both are essentially variants of the AHQ adventures in the same issues. GW also had to get permission to use any artwork registered to HQ, such as the cover art to HQ, KK, and RotWL, even though Les Edwards was a GW artist at that time. They were also rooted in the Warhammer World, but only in limited ways, so as to not outright state that HQ was in the Warhammer World and could be confused as GW IP.


Well, everything licensed is automatically canon? That's not true in every franchise, but they have a higher level of officialness than some "contest winner featured" content creation. All of the Hero Quest stuff that was published outside of fanzines, fan pages and forums like this had to get permission.


GW were co-collaborators, not just licensees, so that alone gives them more officialness than anything else licensed. That said, whatever went down between MB and GW meant that there were only ever two HQ adventures published in WD, they are relatively easy to ignore if you don't want to use them. There's no extensive missing EPs from GW or anything hidden in WD, so are probably best used for reinforcing the Warhammer influences of HQ than anything else.

Kurgan wrote:
Chances are that the WD content will be conveniently ignored in NuHQ, and no longer considered canon if a new canon from Hasbro comes into being. GW owns the articles, not Hasbro, so this content cannot be officially used for HQ.


That's why I'll argue with you now, and then take your side when they do that.

From what I see of the MWS, it looks like Marvel got permission from GW, rather than MB, to use HQ and AHQ in that publication. As such, the MWS will probably be treated the same as the WD articles.


It was enjoyable. I still get to create my own characters!


That's WHY we are arguing now. Enjoy it whilst it lasts, I say...
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book (HQ CERB)
User avatar
Davane

Orc Shaman
Orc Shaman
 
Posts: 395
Joined: January 8th, 2020, 8:05 am
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar

I don't hate Warhammer, it's just not identical to HeroQuest

Postby Kurgan » January 16th, 2021, 11:26 pm

"No offense,"...

Davane wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Davane wrote:
Pancho wrote:I consider the Marvel special and the White Dwarf Quests canon too. The quests from the novels are semi-canon I guess. The Dark Company is another official one, which is like a side story and fits in anywhere towards the end without any problems.


Don't let Kurgan hear you say that? He doesn't do GW in his games... :P


I do actually, but no more than the game actually provides me. :ugeek:


So, none then... :P


No, and why do you keep trying to fight me? I said Chaos Warriors and Fimirs are from Warhammer. That just means I don't take the entire Warhammer canons into consideration when I play Hero Quest, because I'm not forced to by the game from 1990. You want to take an all or nothing approach, which is your prerogative. But since you have no REAL argument here, perhaps its time to ease off?

Unless you are inviting me to play with you, by your particular interpretations, this is pointless, and you don't even have to read the rest of my reply. Like I said, I'll be on your "side" in terms of criticizing Hasbro if they make a dumber backstory in the Remake. There's no point "arguing" about this non-issue.

Kurgan wrote:GW were co-collaborators, not just licensees, so that alone gives them more officialness than anything else licensed. That said, whatever went down between MB and GW meant that there were only ever two HQ adventures published in WD, they are relatively easy to ignore if you don't want to use them. There's no extensive missing EPs from GW or anything hidden in WD, so are probably best used for reinforcing the Warhammer influences of HQ than anything else.


So since the collaboration with GM is over, what does that mean for you? I know what it means for me... absolutely nothing. The classic game is still the same as when I first played it. I've already accepted that multiple editions exist, many years ago... and so far I'm happy to hear that all signs point to the remake NOT being ruined like so many other attempted remakes of nostalgic franchises.

If/when I play the new version, if something bothers me I'll change it, and if something from the nostalgic version I like isn't there, I'll put it back in. Easy fix. I'm sure you'll do the same, but if it's too hard, you won't buy it, and that's how you send a message that you didn't care for their creative changes (and a constructively written letter of course!).

It was enjoyable. I still get to create my own characters!


That's WHY we are arguing now. Enjoy it whilst it lasts, I say...


I don't actually understand what you're trying to argue with me about. Where's the conflict or question? Are you saying we can't name our characters? That's the whole point of the blasted game from the beginning. Otherwise you'd be saying that a novel or comic book is "more canon" than the game it was based on, which is preposterous. All those sources are proving is that you can come up with different names because they are different characters. It's an open-ended product where things are pretty generic so that you can insert your own content in there pretty easily.

If you really want to fight about it, start a new thread, and start by showing me where "Morcar" and "Mentor" fit into the Warhammer fantasy world (be sure you indicate what editions can be used) and then explain how you are going to get all players of Classic Hero Quest outside of Europe to abide by this interpretation. Now do you see how goofy this is? I am half joking here, if you do start such a thread there's no point in me contributing, you already know what I think about it. ;)

If you want to kill time I'm sure there are other threads in need of helpful responses, but I don't see the point of anymore of this. A non-productive argument is just filler.


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie!
User avatar
Channeler
Kurgan

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5989
Images: 85
Joined: February 23rd, 2019, 7:08 pm
Location: https://discord.gg/2R9pEP4cty
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Scribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberChampion Group Member

Re: I don't hate Warhammer, it's just not identical to HeroQ

Postby Davane » January 17th, 2021, 1:59 am

Kurgan wrote:"No offense,"...


None taken. But I will justify some of my responses to you, as you may not have read them clearly, and may be mistaking my intent here...

Kurgan wrote:
Davane wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Davane wrote:
Pancho wrote:I consider the Marvel special and the White Dwarf Quests canon too. The quests from the novels are semi-canon I guess. The Dark Company is another official one, which is like a side story and fits in anywhere towards the end without any problems.


Don't let Kurgan hear you say that? He doesn't do GW in his games... :P


I do actually, but no more than the game actually provides me. :ugeek:


So, none then... :P


No, and why do you keep trying to fight me? I said Chaos Warriors and Fimirs are from Warhammer. That just means I don't take the entire Warhammer canons into consideration when I play Hero Quest, because I'm not forced to by the game from 1990. You want to take an all or nothing approach, which is your prerogative. But since you have no REAL argument here, perhaps its time to ease off?

Unless you are inviting me to play with you, by your particular interpretations, this is pointless, and you don't even have to read the rest of my reply. Like I said, I'll be on your "side" in terms of criticizing Hasbro if they make a dumber backstory in the Remake. There's no point "arguing" about this non-issue.


This was a blithe comment in reference to your logic that HQ is not Warhammer. There is nothing official in HQ that outright states that it is from Warhammer. Thus, if you are using just what HQ gives you as being Warhammer, then logically, you aren't technically using anything from Warhammer.

Chaos Warriors aren't UNIQUE to Warhammer, and neither is Chaos. They are just evil, steel-plated warriors. Fimir as a name are unique to Warhammer, but they are essentially cyclopean Lizardmen, which are NOT strictly unique to Warhammer.

So, in essence, I'm conceding your point - because if that's how you want to play, then that's your choice.

Please read further below regards to "arguments."

Kurgan wrote:
Kurgan wrote:GW were co-collaborators, not just licensees, so that alone gives them more officialness than anything else licensed. That said, whatever went down between MB and GW meant that there were only ever two HQ adventures published in WD, they are relatively easy to ignore if you don't want to use them. There's no extensive missing EPs from GW or anything hidden in WD, so are probably best used for reinforcing the Warhammer influences of HQ than anything else.


So since the collaboration with GM is over, what does that mean for you? I know what it means for me... absolutely nothing. The classic game is still the same as when I first played it. I've already accepted that multiple editions exist, many years ago... and so far I'm happy to hear that all signs point to the remake NOT being ruined like so many other attempted remakes of nostalgic franchises.

If/when I play the new version, if something bothers me I'll change it, and if something from the nostalgic version I like isn't there, I'll put it back in. Easy fix. I'm sure you'll do the same, but if it's too hard, you won't buy it, and that's how you send a message that you didn't care for their creative changes (and a constructively written letter of course!).


What this means for me, is that I am still somewhat bitter over the way the GW/MB collab worked out. Old wounds and all that. Not that it matters, of course.

Then again, I'm still somewhat crotchety at how the American War for Independence turned out... but c'est la vie.

Kurgan wrote:
It was enjoyable. I still get to create my own characters!


That's WHY we are arguing now. Enjoy it whilst it lasts, I say...


I don't actually understand what you're trying to argue with me about. Where's the conflict or question? Are you saying we can't name our characters? That's the whole point of the blasted game from the beginning. Otherwise you'd be saying that a novel or comic book is "more canon" than the game it was based on, which is preposterous. All those sources are proving is that you can come up with different names because they are different characters. It's an open-ended product where things are pretty generic so that you can insert your own content in there pretty easily.


I think you misread this, probably because you misunderstood what I meant by arguing. I am arguing, as in, putting forth a rational argument, and providing the reasoning for that. I am justifying why I would argue that HQ was, and still is, set in the Warhammer World.

You have justified why you would argue that HQ isn't, and you are entitled to your "wrong" opinion. I say wrong, because it seems like your justification is that you grew up experiencing HQ without GW involvement. I think that your position would change if you had grown up with the experience of GW involvement in HQ, which makes your justification subjective. However, even if I hadn't personally experienced HQ through GW, my position wouldn't change - because I would still conclude that HQ was set in the Warhammer World given the history of GW and MB, even if that WASN'T my experience. Thus, I am using a more objective stance to answer the question, because that's what I thought the question regarding whether or not HQ was set in Warhammer World was about, and that the conclusions of this lead to much of the division in the debate regarding the Hasbro remake.

The reason your subjective answer is wrong comes back to me as a person, being an academic (albeit a crap one). I have studied both natural and social sciences, and as such I have had formal training in how to present an argument, as well as understanding the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. The scientist in me assumes objectivity, because subjectively, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and therefore the whole point of getting some sort of answer through consensus is somewhat pointless, because it all comes down to the question "why does it matter?" However, studying social science has taught me that objectivity can be limited, depending upon the subject being discussed, and it's not always possible to be 100% objective about every subject, so striving for a reasonable degree of objectivity is the next best thing.

In essence, the division in this thread are largely down to the importance people place on GW's involvement in HQ, and not being involved in the remake, and the potential impact that would make to what can be perceived to be a vital aspect of HQ and some of the lore changes.

Kurgan wrote:If you really want to fight about it, start a new thread, and start by showing me where "Morcar" and "Mentor" fit into the Warhammer fantasy world (be sure you indicate what editions can be used) and then explain how you are going to get all players of Classic Hero Quest outside of Europe to abide by this interpretation. Now do you see how goofy this is? I am half joking here, if you do start such a thread there's no point in me contributing, you already know what I think about it. ;)


This is an absurdo reductum argument hiding your own ignorance (badly) is the guise of logic, Kurgan. Even if I wanted to fight about this, you have not only set the goal posts so narrow as to make the task almost impossible, and then defined yourself as assuming the position of ensuring that the task is impossible. Thus, this is an irrelevance, and I too can joke. Like, for example, how about I kill everyone outside of Europe? Logically, it would solve the problem, but realistically, I'd probably miss your conversation...

Seriously though, this isn't about fighting. I'm not fighting for you to play HQ MY way - what would be the point? Even if I could make you play HQ the "right" way, you'd probably end up resenting it, so I might as well stick with my Zombie buddies here. Oh, wait, I guess I wasn't being serious after all...

Kurgan wrote:If you want to kill time I'm sure there are other threads in need of helpful responses, but I don't see the point of anymore of this. A non-productive argument is just filler.


Shame, I was enjoying this conversation. But if you don't see the point of it, then I guess that's you saying goodbye. See you round the boards, and no hard feelings?
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book (HQ CERB)
User avatar
Davane

Orc Shaman
Orc Shaman
 
Posts: 395
Joined: January 8th, 2020, 8:05 am
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar

Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Kurgan » January 17th, 2021, 1:49 pm

I'm giving you the last word on the "Why Warhammer is HeroQuest canon" topic, and I explained why I'm not going to answer your several pointed challenges above. You may think me ignorant, wrong, and feel sorry for me if you like, and I really don't care.

I don't see a hierarchy of canon between official released editions of Hero Quest and that won't change regardless of what Hasbro might say regarding their latest version (which is directly based mostly on the version I grew up with, that's not some kind of "victory" for me, I am just happy the game will be available to more people and it looks to be more or less the classic gameplay). I think that's a reasonable position, and you (I think) don't, that's cool.


No worries. Now you sons of barbarians, you know how I feel. ;)


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie!
User avatar
Channeler
Kurgan

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5989
Images: 85
Joined: February 23rd, 2019, 7:08 pm
Location: https://discord.gg/2R9pEP4cty
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Scribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberChampion Group Member

Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Davane » January 18th, 2021, 1:04 am

Kurgan wrote:I'm giving you the last word on the "Why Warhammer is HeroQuest canon" topic, and I explained why I'm not going to answer your several pointed challenges above. You may think me ignorant, wrong, and feel sorry for me if you like, and I really don't care.

I don't see a hierarchy of canon between official released editions of Hero Quest and that won't change regardless of what Hasbro might say regarding their latest version (which is directly based mostly on the version I grew up with, that's not some kind of "victory" for me, I am just happy the game will be available to more people and it looks to be more or less the classic gameplay). I think that's a reasonable position, and you (I think) don't, that's cool.


No worries. Now you sons of barbarians, you know how I feel. ;)


No worries, Kurgan.

I am using the term "ignorance" literally here - your argument is essentially "I grew up with HQ this way, so that's how I play." That's perfectly fine for a subjective argument, and I can totally agree with that. However, it's not suitable for a more objective approach to the question, which I believe the question deserves.

I say more objective, because there's still some subjectivity involved in answering the question that cannot be 100% objective. You argue that there's not enough evidence to confirm that HQ was ever set in the Warhammer World, where as I argue that GW's involvement as collaborator is enough evidence that HQ was set in the Warhammer World, and that there's not enough evidence to confirm that this aspect of the setting was ever changed. Although based more on objectivity, there still the subjective aspect of who is interpreting the history of HQ and the conclusions being drawn as a result.

As for Hasbro's reprint, I will reserve my judgement, but voice my concerns. For me, if the reprint is just that, then I will be happy with the reprint, largely for the positions that you hold. However, if Hasbro intends to radically change the setting, and then proceed to present that as HQ as it always was (rather than HQ going forwards), I will be vocally opposed to such a decision, because for all intents and purposes, it would be a revisionist lie.

I don't mind HQ evolving, although I'd prefer if there was a story reason for changes rather than "that's just how it is now," and I think fans of HQ, old and new, would appreciate more thought going into HQ and any changes than just "cos." I don't appreciate legal and/or social issues being forced on my games without some kind of story justification, either. Thus, if there's an Orc Bard in HQ, I want to know why, within the story, that would be the case. You can see my comments on the Orc Bard thread (some of which involved normative identity and the potential "new meta" for the HQ reprint, which earned me a vicious tongue lashing from Cynthialee), but to put it bluntly - an Orc Bard is not impossible, but would be more inclined to favour drumming, screaming, and heavy rock rather than a foppish hat, a rapier, and a lute...

It's easy to see why there's concern that a new bunch of writers are coming from D&D to change HQ, as they display a considerable lack of the Warhammer World, which raises all sorts of questions that leave players who use the Warhammer World as the backdrop for HQ asking "Why?" Of the THREE new heroes, none seem particularly suited to HQ as defined, largely due to conflicts with existing Warhammer World lore. Of the three, the Druid is the least questionable, since druids DO exist in the Warhammer World, either as priests of the Old Faith, or as wizards of the Jade College, so it's not totally unreasonable that you'd see them in HQ.

For the Halfling Warlock, the concern is that the Halfling is different from the Halflings of the Moot. Whilst D&D 3e changed Halflings from Hobbits to small ninjas, Warhammer still has the Halflings as Hobbits, replete with a gift for larceny, and sedentary approach to life and it's creature comforts, but most of all, a magic resistance, including Chaos resistance, that's almost on par with the Dwarfs. Thus, just as like with the Orc Bard, there's the question of "Why," that hangs in the air. The answer to these questions could be a good story, and a good addition to the canon, that deserves somewhat more than mere handwaving by Hasbro and new writers seemingly more intent on things "being different," than explaining why they are different.

Naturally, players could just ignore the new content, including these new heroes, if they don't like them. But that doesn't bode well for the level of commitment that either Hasbro or these new authors has towards HQ being seen as anything other than a D&D dungeon crawling board game going forwards...
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book (HQ CERB)
User avatar
Davane

Orc Shaman
Orc Shaman
 
Posts: 395
Joined: January 8th, 2020, 8:05 am
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar

Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Kurgan » January 18th, 2021, 4:36 am

I've responded to you Davane in a PM explaining that I think you've misunderstood me, and what I don't think you've been fair about already. So, moving on...

To everybody else,

The real Question Mark for we the fans is the new content. They've been pretty tight lipped about it, except for the sparse bits and hints here and there. The fears among several forum members is that this will make Orcs into misunderstood noble Heroes, rather than the evil dumb army they were always seen as before. Yet, even if that's the point, we still don't see the execution of it. How would it play out? HeroQuest is not know for its elongated prose... Mentor says my friends, powerful magics out there, forces of Chaos, Emperor calls for aid, blah blah blah, and the quest begins a few short sentences later. Go from point A to point B, find the treasure, kill the bad guy, rescue the prisoner, escape with your lives or all will be lost. So even if they write some truly awful new storylines, we can still easily crunch those up into something wortwhile.

I AGREE it would be sad if we had to do that and apologize to all the people who stared and pointed when they saw us get all excited about this "Hero Quest 2021!" business. The people we talked into getting the game (or gifted it to them) may scratch their heads.

But then it got me to thinking... okay, so when you go and buy D&D these days (and who hasn't complained about D&D and I'm not even a regular player, I can count the number of sessions I've had on the fingers of one hand, but the books are fun to read sometimes too). Well, do you use EVERYTHING in there or just pick out what you want and leave the rest? That's kind of what we're doing here.

Sure you can say HeroQuest is designed to be simpler. But we already know with a high degree of certainty even before seeing the actual product (unless they are hiding a deep dark secret), that we're getting 34 "good" (classic) quests. It's the 4-20 "new" quests we don't know about, really. We already saw the lukewarm response to the three new heroes.

This to me is like when the great awesome movie comes out on disc and we all agree its great, but we're disappointed by the bonus features, that they weren't all that. But even if you paid an extra $50 for the "Mythic" tier, you were doing that to get the Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord expansions, right? Not just to get the Orc Bard and hope that Spirit Queen's Torment doesn'

It's clear that many of us have our pencils at the ready, with half-formed ideas of rewrites and replacements set to go off the moment the shrink wrap comes off the box. It will be interesting to see what people come up with. It's certainly a much easier task than the fan editors trying to turn the latest Star Wars flick into less of an embarrassment!

I'm hopeful, that with the gameplay intact, the rest will be easy pickings. Yes, we'd prefer it not be cringe-inducing. Just like I'm relieved they are casting the plastic figures in shades of color rather than grey (for those who don't want to paint them), I would be relieved to hear that the new quests were done in the spirit of the established lore (whether NA, EU or some other classic release) than something shoe-horned in from D&D. But let's be real here, without explicit access to the Warhammer fantasy material, doesn't that seem like the most logical source they would pull from? People have expressed worry that "D&D writers" are just putting their favorite characters from that game into this one. If they could just make something up (a tall order I suppose) but in the "spirit" of the classic work, maybe that would be the best, but it's still a risk.

At this point of uncertainty, I do feel for those who fear a loss of the Warhammer fantasy inspiration in this new version, I really do. But consider the position they are in. What do you expect them to do? If they don't have the rights to the properties of Gamesworkshop, they're going to have to change it somehow, or just leave it out entirely. Fans in North America didn't get the fancy map of the Olde World. We can still print one out. I hope for your sakes that Hasbro doesn't have a new one created that "forces" you to accept its a different world. What if it was the same map but the names were all changed? What if instead of the Empire it was the Imperial Realm or something? "The Dreaded Wastelands of the North"? I have no idea, ask a trademark lawyer. If they just leave that stuff out, that's probably the most diplomatic decision, if they can't get a last minute deal (we can dream). The fact that they've stated they're using the NA version as the base and yet they're clearly sprinkling in unique material from the EU editions, which leaves the whole thing ambiguous. If they can't even say its loosely set in the Warhammer olde world, what can they say now?

What if it was set in the NEW WORLD... whoa, game changer (literally). Seriously guys, I hope whatever they do is as painless as possible. Remember we still have the classic game. It's too bad they couldn't have just reprinted that, like some other board game companies have done. I know, rights issues and lawyers... The wrong way to do it would be to come out and say that all previous versions of Hero Quest are non-canon. There would be no reason to do this, it would just come across as insulting to the fans they are selling this to in the first place. If they're never going to remake the various other packs, it would be foolish and counterproductive to somehow say fans couldn't use them (an unenforceable directive in a game such as this). So hopefully they'll be polite and just take our money.


Rewards:
Destroyed a Zombie!
User avatar
Channeler
Kurgan

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5989
Images: 85
Joined: February 23rd, 2019, 7:08 pm
Location: https://discord.gg/2R9pEP4cty
Forum Language: English (United States)
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Scribes Group MemberAdventurers' Guild Group MemberChampion Group Member

Re: Heroquest remake by Hasbro - The BIG discussion thread

Postby Davane » January 18th, 2021, 8:40 am

Kurgan wrote:I've responded to you Davane in a PM explaining that I think you've misunderstood me, and what I don't think you've been fair about already. So, moving on...


I've replied to your PM, so I am not going to discuss whether or not HQ is set in the Warhammer World with you anymore here, Kurgan. We can agree to disagree. Plus, I'm beginning to wonder just how many people here are thinking that we should probably just get a room already!

Kurgan wrote:To everybody else,

The real Question Mark for we the fans is the new content. They've been pretty tight lipped about it, except for the sparse bits and hints here and there. The fears among several forum members is that this will make Orcs into misunderstood noble Heroes, rather than the evil dumb army they were always seen as before. Yet, even if that's the point, we still don't see the execution of it. How would it play out? HeroQuest is not know for its elongated prose... Mentor says my friends, powerful magics out there, forces of Chaos, Emperor calls for aid, blah blah blah, and the quest begins a few short sentences later. Go from point A to point B, find the treasure, kill the bad guy, rescue the prisoner, escape with your lives or all will be lost. So even if they write some truly awful new storylines, we can still easily crunch those up into something wortwhile.

I AGREE it would be sad if we had to do that and apologize to all the people who stared and pointed when they saw us get all excited about this "Hero Quest 2021!" business. The people we talked into getting the game (or gifted it to them) may scratch their heads.


There's definitely fears about the new content for HQ, but it's also fears about the amount of effort Hasbro are putting in to change HQ, why they are putting it in, and their dedication to continuing HQ as a whole. It doesn't help that we've had no real updates at all about how HQ is going, let alone what changes there will be, and when we are going to actually get the games.

For the Orcs, a change from dumb evil minion to misunderstood noble hero is quite big, and is a bit of a concern if it's just dumped in as "these are orcs now" and then left, as we play the old HQ adventures in which the last thing you could say about an Orc was that it was "misunderstood." For all this talk of an ancient, magical, Orc kingdom - we've not seen any details, and this doesn't bode well for those of us invested in HQ.

Kurgan wrote:But then it got me to thinking... okay, so when you go and buy D&D these days (and who hasn't complained about D&D and I'm not even a regular player, I can count the number of sessions I've had on the fingers of one hand, but the books are fun to read sometimes too). Well, do you use EVERYTHING in there or just pick out what you want and leave the rest? That's kind of what we're doing here.


It should be noted that this is often referred to as the Rule 0 Fallacy - that is, deciding whether something (usually a game) is or isn't broken, because you can modify the game and/or choose to pick what we want from it. This fallacy exists because, whilst Rule 0 (The GM/Players can change the rules.) is generally accepted, using it in logical arguments about the rules undermines the whole point of having that discussion in the first place.

In general, any argument which involves the possibility of subject agency to change the situation is a logical fallacy, especially as it opens up things like the self-fulfilling prophecy fallacy (i.e. proving the argument that people kill people by raising the possibility of going out and killing someone.)

Ultimately, you are correct with your advice regarding choosing what we want for our HQ games, but it is not relevant in any form of objective discussion about HQ, especially if we are looking at what is officially released for the game.

Kurgan wrote:Sure you can say HeroQuest is designed to be simpler. But we already know with a high degree of certainty even before seeing the actual product (unless they are hiding a deep dark secret), that we're getting 34 "good" (classic) quests. It's the 4-20 "new" quests we don't know about, really. We already saw the lukewarm response to the three new heroes.

This to me is like when the great awesome movie comes out on disc and we all agree its great, but we're disappointed by the bonus features, that they weren't all that. But even if you paid an extra $50 for the "Mythic" tier, you were doing that to get the Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord expansions, right? Not just to get the Orc Bard and hope that Spirit Queen's Torment doesn'


I actually paid the extra $50 for the new content, because I wanted to see what the new quests would be like. These new quests will be a testament to Hasbro's commitment for HQ going forward, and will probably make or break HQ as a commercial franchise going forward. As it stands, we are fans of HQ, but the concerns and lack of information mean that we are unable to be Brand Advocates for Hasbro. Unfortunately, as it stands, fans being Brand Advocates is pretty much what will determine the commercial future of HQ at this point.

Kurgan wrote:It's clear that many of us have our pencils at the ready, with half-formed ideas of rewrites and replacements set to go off the moment the shrink wrap comes off the box. It will be interesting to see what people come up with. It's certainly a much easier task than the fan editors trying to turn the latest Star Wars flick into less of an embarrassment!

I'm hopeful, that with the gameplay intact, the rest will be easy pickings. Yes, we'd prefer it not be cringe-inducing. Just like I'm relieved they are casting the plastic figures in shades of color rather than grey (for those who don't want to paint them), I would be relieved to hear that the new quests were done in the spirit of the established lore (whether NA, EU or some other classic release) than something shoe-horned in from D&D. But let's be real here, without explicit access to the Warhammer fantasy material, doesn't that seem like the most logical source they would pull from? People have expressed worry that "D&D writers" are just putting their favorite characters from that game into this one. If they could just make something up (a tall order I suppose) but in the "spirit" of the classic work, maybe that would be the best, but it's still a risk.


Both D&D and the Warhammer World are so broadly generic in nature, that there's plenty of inspiration to be taken from them without challenging any Product Identity. The concern that HQ is becoming more like D&D isn't so much about D&D itself, but rather the changes that are being made to D&D and the impact it has had on the game. D&D has evolved a LOT, both in terms of gameplay and settings, for good and bad. The current trend right now, however, is the new zeitgeist of forcing social diversity issues from the real world into the game, either out of fear that social diversity wasn't already in the game, or out of trying to prove how "woke" the game or setting actually is.

Kurgan wrote:At this point of uncertainty, I do feel for those who fear a loss of the Warhammer fantasy inspiration in this new version, I really do. But consider the position they are in. What do you expect them to do? If they don't have the rights to the properties of Gamesworkshop, they're going to have to change it somehow, or just leave it out entirely. Fans in North America didn't get the fancy map of the Olde World. We can still print one out. I hope for your sakes that Hasbro doesn't have a new one created that "forces" you to accept its a different world. What if it was the same map but the names were all changed? What if instead of the Empire it was the Imperial Realm or something? "The Dreaded Wastelands of the North"? I have no idea, ask a trademark lawyer. If they just leave that stuff out, that's probably the most diplomatic decision, if they can't get a last minute deal (we can dream). The fact that they've stated they're using the NA version as the base and yet they're clearly sprinkling in unique material from the EU editions, which leaves the whole thing ambiguous. If they can't even say its loosely set in the Warhammer olde world, what can they say now?


Leaving stuff out is never a problem, especially if you are using an additive design philosophy. For example, Fimir don't appear in NuHQ, but Hasbro can have Abominations included in the mythos as well as Fimir, but they just don't get mentioned any more officially.

Thing is, that Hasbro can't say that HQ is set in the Warhammer World, however loosely, but they CAN say that it isn't set in the Warhammer World. MB also had this choice, but decided not to. After all, if Warhammer fans want to think that HQ is set in the Warhammer World, then that will lead to more sales for them.

As far as I am aware, the Japanese edition was the only edition that wasn't set in the Warhammer World. Instead it was localised with a "new" setting that would appeal more to a Japanese audience. However, there's plenty of room in the Warhammer World for the setting of the Japanese Quest Book to fit without disturbing anything, as even now, there's vast swathes of the Warhammer World that has barely had more than a few generalised paragraphs detailing it. Japan equates to Nippon in the Warhammer World, in the far east, but as far as I am aware, it has never been officially detailed as anything other than a land to the far east where ninjas come from - and that's paraphrasing. There's probably lore on it SOMEWHERE, if you dig around enough, but it's not like the Nipponese Army was core to Warhammer Fantasy.

Kurgan wrote:What if it was set in the NEW WORLD... whoa, game changer (literally). Seriously guys, I hope whatever they do is as painless as possible. Remember we still have the classic game. It's too bad they couldn't have just reprinted that, like some other board game companies have done. I know, rights issues and lawyers... The wrong way to do it would be to come out and say that all previous versions of Hero Quest are non-canon. There would be no reason to do this, it would just come across as insulting to the fans they are selling this to in the first place. If they're never going to remake the various other packs, it would be foolish and counterproductive to somehow say fans couldn't use them (an unenforceable directive in a game such as this). So hopefully they'll be polite and just take our money.


The New World in Warhammer is Lustria and Naggaroth, as well as the lands in between. There's a Bretonnian colony there too, and some vampires if I recall correctly. WD included two articles about sailing to the New World in WHQ, and exploring the jungles of Lustria and the remains of the Lizardman empire. More details can be found here.

Or did you mean HQ was set in A NEW WORLD? Like I said, as well developed as the Warhammer World is, there's always room for new places to be discovered. Domains come and go overnight in the Border Princes, and even in the Empire, where it's been charted to death, there's still new things to be found, new political regions defined, and new foes to face, whether hidden deep in the woods or under unassuming villages.

Basically, unless Hasbro out and out says HQ is set in an entirely different world to the Warhammer World, then people will continue to assume it's set in a broadly fantasy setting like the Warhammer World (if they are aware of it, of course). Hasbro has the right to say HQ isn't set in the Warhammer World, however disagreeable this may be to people who still appreciate GW's involvement in making HQ the game it is today. The problem is not that they might replace the Warhammer World, but what they are going to replace the Warhammer World with, if they even bother to replace it at all. Hasbro has the opportunity to define what the HQ brand is, and differentiate it from the Warhammer World, should they choose to do so. But the lack of communication that we've seen doesn't inspire faith that Hasbro are in any way dedicated to making HQ a success, let alone defining it as a uniquely branded setting.
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book (HQ CERB)
User avatar
Davane

Orc Shaman
Orc Shaman
 
Posts: 395
Joined: January 8th, 2020, 8:05 am
Forum Language: British English
Hero:
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar

PreviousNext

Return to General HeroQuest Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests