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Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

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Re: Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

Postby Anderas » Wednesday June 27th, 2018 2:55pm

Ah no :)
I have made my cards myself and used one of the blank card decks they offer.


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Re: Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

Postby Daedalus » Thursday June 28th, 2018 4:13pm

Maurice76 wrote:. . . The reason I did this is because soon me and my friends will likely make a run through the game and I'm scanning ahead for what rules would fit our group best. I intend to use Slev's Advanced revision of the rules, which seems to mostly lean on the American version. Since the European version used to be our standard, that is a significant difference. Of course, the American version also has the Apothecaries and with monsters having more bodypoints, it seems likely a lot of gold is being converted into potions when using the American rules. But does it compensate for the disparity between the number of possible treasure searches? Thoughts?

The NA and EU Treasure decks are similar, but not equal. The EU ratio is 17 good to 9 bad (1 nothing), while the NA ratio is a less-favorable 14 good to 10 bad. The notable difference is the NA deck lacks a 100-gold-coin Treasure Horde card. You may wish to remove it for at least a time if you allow 4 NA searches per room, as it will be drawn more often. How much more often? That depends on the group. Some groups try to grind away every room with all 4 searches, but certainly not all or even the majority of groups.

Having extra search availability doesn't necessarily translate into more searches. From my own NA experience, we generally only milked the Treasure deck while it was easy. After about a 60/40 ratio of bad to good cards, we learned to only sometimes search further and then only after achieving the Quest objective so that we could search with a safe margin of Body Points. Another factor was healing potions; if there were still two or more in the deck, we were motivated to search more rooms. Beyond that, sometimes we preferred to simply end earlier rather than search every last room. The trend was to forego the extra searches after we felt more secure in equipment.

One nice aspect of implementing NA monster Body Points is that Wandering Monster card will increase in threat as Heroes scale up in power. The fact that an NA deck contains an extra Wandering Monster Card drives this home all the more. Introducing multiple monsters also increases the threat for both the EU and NA systems. Both multiples combined in NA monsters--2 Fimirs, for example--can wear down treasure-grinders considerably.

Previously mentioned furniture searching is a nice mod. Another option is to instead allow one search per room as a default, but to also allow an extra search--up to four--to be allowed for each defeated monster. This way more dangerous rooms potentially provide greater rewards, but searches will sometimes be limited to than less than four per room.
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Re: Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

Postby Maurice76 » Thursday June 28th, 2018 4:49pm

Thanks for those insights, I really appreciate it - mostly because I am still undecided.

Just earlier today I realised that perhaps instead of weighing furniture (if I exclude corridors, the number of searches of 1 per room and 1 per furniture is less than what the base EU rules give which include corridors) I should take room size in consideration. Small rooms would allow for just one search, bigger rooms for more. Let's say the two small 2x3 rooms in the lower left each allow for one search and the big one in the center at 5x6 allows for 4 searches, then you'd get a sliding scale ranging from 6 tiles to 30 tiles. Three intermediate values are then 12, 18 and 24 ... so rooms at a size of 6-12 allow for 1 search, 13-18 allow for 2 searches, 19-24 allow for 3 and 25+ allows for 4. This is just a very rough idea, I haven't yet analysed the sizes of the chambers across the board and hence their allowed searches. Maybe I will have some time tomorrow to ponder about that solution.

As far as my player group is concerned, the last time we played it, we were teenagers. Now we're all 40+ :P. I have no idea how they will play it through now.


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Re: Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

Postby Gold Bearer » Thursday June 28th, 2018 6:50pm

Daedalus wrote:
Maurice76 wrote:. . . The reason I did this is because soon me and my friends will likely make a run through the game and I'm scanning ahead for what rules would fit our group best. I intend to use Slev's Advanced revision of the rules, which seems to mostly lean on the American version. Since the European version used to be our standard, that is a significant difference. Of course, the American version also has the Apothecaries and with monsters having more bodypoints, it seems likely a lot of gold is being converted into potions when using the American rules. But does it compensate for the disparity between the number of possible treasure searches? Thoughts?

The NA and EU Treasure decks are similar, but not equal. The EU ratio is 17 good to 9 bad (1 nothing), while the NA ratio is a less-favorable 14 good to 10 bad. The notable difference is the NA deck lacks a 100-gold-coin Treasure Horde card.
Don't forget Holy Water, that's a decent card. I honestly think they left that out of the US version so as not to offend Christians (some of them were already apparently complaining about D&D being 'demonic' :roll: ), why else would they leave out such a cool and unique card?

Maurice76 wrote:Just earlier today I realised that perhaps instead of weighing furniture (if I exclude corridors, the number of searches of 1 per room and 1 per furniture is less than what the base EU rules give which include corridors) I should take room size in consideration. Small rooms would allow for just one search, bigger rooms for more. Let's say the two small 2x3 rooms in the lower left each allow for one search and the big one in the center at 5x6 allows for 4 searches, then you'd get a sliding scale ranging from 6 tiles to 30 tiles. Three intermediate values are then 12, 18 and 24 ... so rooms at a size of 6-12 allow for 1 search, 13-18 allow for 2 searches, 19-24 allow for 3 and 25+ allows for 4. This is just a very rough idea, I haven't yet analysed the sizes of the chambers across the board and hence their allowed searches. Maybe I will have some time tomorrow to ponder about that solution.

As far as my player group is concerned, the last time we played it, we were teenagers. Now we're all 40+ :P. I have no idea how they will play it through now.
I'd keep it much more simple than that. Adding new content to HQ is great but if you add complexity like that it really needs to be because that new complexity is the simplest way of bringing the new content into the game without diluting that content. Adding a sliding number of allowed room searches depending on the room size falls way outside that in my opinion. One search per room, no treasure searches in corridors. You don't want to make gold too easy to get and devalue listed treasure. :2cents:
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Re: Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

Postby mitchiemasha » Thursday June 28th, 2018 11:02pm

Gold Bearer wrote:I'd keep it much more simple than that.

Agreed...
Maurice76 wrote: I should take room size in consideration. Small rooms would allow for just one search, bigger rooms for more. Let's say the two small 2x3 rooms in the lower left each allow for one search and the big one in the center at 5x6 allows for 4 searches, then you'd get a sliding scale ranging from 6 tiles to 30 tiles. Three intermediate values are then 12, 18 and 24 ... so rooms at a size of 6-12 allow for 1 search, 13-18 allow for 2 searches, 19-24 allow for 3 and 25+ allows for 4. This is just a very rough idea, I haven't yet analysed the sizes of the chambers across the board and hence their allowed searches. Maybe I will have some time tomorrow to ponder about that solution

I'd say that was taking it a bit too far. It's also a lot more complex to explain.


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Re: Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

Postby Anderas » Friday June 29th, 2018 3:42am

Say, can someone access this link?

https://www.printerstudio.de/design/dn_ ... 4DA446F776

Just a try


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Re: Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

Postby Maurice76 » Friday June 29th, 2018 3:52am

Gold Bearer wrote:One search per room, no treasure searches in corridors. You don't want to make gold too easy to get and devalue listed treasure. :2cents:


But I don't want to starve them for gold either :P. I need to find some balance, though. One major difference between the EU and NA versions as I stated above is also the apothecary. Especially with monsters with multiple bodypoints, I expect they will use more potions - so I can't really see myself reducing the number of searches to even less than the EU version of the game. Using just rooms + furniture is already less than that. Argh!

Anderas wrote:Say, can someone access this link?

https://www.printerstudio.de/design/dn_ ... 4DA446F776

Just a try


Not me, it resolves back to https://www.printerstudio.de/index.aspx so I guess there's a session ID in that link you posted.


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Re: Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

Postby knightkrawler » Friday June 29th, 2018 4:11am

Maurice76 wrote:Not me, it resolves back to https://www.printerstudio.de/index.aspx so I guess there's a session ID in that link you posted.


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Re: Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

Postby Maurice76 » Friday June 29th, 2018 5:49am

Below is my Treasure Search analysis, across the first three quest books. Note that I've used the version as made by Slev, downloaded from his website, though I think they're fairly spot-on with respect to the original quest books. Furthermore, I've excluded Treasure Searches from Pit Traps. The four columns below are from left to right the amount of Treasure Searches possible according to the European rules (1 search per room and corridor), according to the American rules (1 search per room, per Hero), performing 1 search per room plus 1 search for each piece of furniture and the fourth column is the weighted suggestion I made above with respect to chamber size. I've used the distinction of 1 search for 6 and 12 tile chambers, 2 searches for 15 and 16 tile chambers, 3 searches for the 20 tile chambers and 4 for the central chamber.

Questbook 1: The Gathering Storm Europe America Furniture Weighted
Quest 1: The Rescue of Sir Ragnar 18 40 16 21
Quest 2: Prince Magnus' Gold 20 40 14 20
Quest 3: Lair of the Orc Warlord 11 36 15 18
Quest 4: Melar's Maze 21 40 17 22
Quest 5: Castle of Mystery 10 40 10 23
Quest 6: Race from the Dark 18 52 18 26
Quest 7: The Stone Mage 17 40 15 22
Quest 8: Legacy of the Orc Warlord 19 32 13 16
Quest 9: The Fire Mage 26 48 17 26
Quest 10: The Bastion of Chaos 25 52 22 28
Quest 11: The Trial 19 44 25 26
Quest 12: Barak Tor - Barrow of the Witch Lord 27 40 14 19
Quest 13: Quest for the Spirit Blade 20 40 13 20
Quest 14: Return to Barak Tor 23 40 12 18
Questbook total 274 584 221 305
Questbook 2: Kellar's Keep Europe America Furniture Weighted
Quest 1: The Great Gate 19 28 14 18
Quest 2: The Warrior Halls 18 36 10 18
Quest 3: The Spiral Passage 20 36 12 16
Quest 4: The Dwarven Forge 24 40 21 21
Quest 5: Hall of the Dwarven Kings 14 12 7 10
Quest 6: The Great Citadel 23 56 26 32
Quest 7: The Eastern Passage 22 40 15 21
Quest 8: Belorn's Mine 18 24 10 8
Quest 9: The East Gate 15 36 16 22
Quest 10: Grin's Crag 20 40 15 22
Questbook total 193 348 146 188
Questbook 3: Return of the Witch Lord Europe America Furniture Weighted
Quest 1: The Gate of Doom 24 40 15 21
Quest 2: The Cold Halls 18 44 14 24
Quest 3: The Silent Passages 19 52 18 23
Quest 4: The Halls of Vision 23 40 12 20
Quest 5: The Gate of Bellthor 25 40 15 24
Quest 6: The Halls of the Dead 27 52 16 28
Quest 7: The Forgotten Legion 29 44 11 24
Quest 8: The Forbidden City 29 60 19 33
Quest 9: The Last Gate 24 44 19 24
Quest 10: The Court of the Witch Lord 25 44 13 22
Questbook total 243 460 152 243
Totals Europe America Furniture Weighted
710 1392 519 736


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Re: Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

Postby Gold Bearer » Friday June 29th, 2018 7:11am

Why don't just double/treble/quadruple the reward GPs :?:
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

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