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HeroQuest canon?

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Which parts do you consider canon for HeroQuest?

Pictures printed in official quest books
37
18%
White Dwarf
25
12%
Quest published in other fantasy magazines
11
5%
The Japanese version of the game system
12
6%
Marvel Winter Special
27
13%
Sticker Album
21
10%
Dave Morris Novels
25
12%
Advanced HeroQuest
14
7%
Warhammer Quest
7
3%
Warhammer Fantasy
15
7%
HeroQuest 2 Legacy of Sorasil - Amiga game
11
5%
 
Total votes : 205

Re: HeroQuest canon?

Postby Daedalus » December 16th, 2017, 5:01 am

Goblin-King wrote:I thought I'd start compiling a list of questionable canon points. Please add any you find and I'll keep this post updated.

Snotlings - Image in KK
Skaven - White Dwarf/AHQ
Trolls - White Dwarf
Vampires - HQ2LoS
Beholders - HQ2LoS
Continent <name> from JP HQ
Mentor is the white bearded wizard - Marvel Winter Special
Morcar is a Dr Doom-esque wizard - Marvel Winter Special
Mentor is a friendly elf like wizard - Sticker Album
Old World Warhammer map - RotLK/Sticker Album

What am I missing?

if either Mentor is iffy, then I'd include the red-robed Morcar from the Merlin Sticker Album as well. The Marvel Winter Special also has a Chaos Dwarf as Morcar's dungeon keeper.

Rat Ogres (sort of Skaven) and a Trollslayer as a Hero are also from WD.

Cabiri are found in Running the Gauntlet from The Screaming Spectre.
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Re: HeroQuest canon?

Postby whitebeard » December 16th, 2017, 10:29 am

I love this thread. Thanks for reviving it! KKs Care Bears post is the best!

I still say if Stephen Baker was not directly involved, it is not canon. And if mercinaries were his idea (the EU quest packs) then the real Stephen Baker was abducted by aliens and he is now dead to me!
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Re: HeroQuest canon?

Postby Nicodemus » September 27th, 2018, 11:29 am

Pardon the threadomacy.

Was there ever any progress with the development of a timeline in our alternate Old World timeline? I'm specifically thinking in terms of chronology and identifying anchor points in the narrative to establish when particular events take place.

This certainly depends on the order the expansions are played, but I'm primarily interested in the main game and official boxed expansions, less-so the Marvel Winter Special (I love me some Chaos Dwarfs though!), White Dwarf Quests, etc.

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Re: HeroQuest canon?

Postby gootchute » September 27th, 2018, 12:43 pm

Oh boy Whitebeard... the Star Wars Christmas is on YouTube if you want to watch it... but I don't recommend it... (do it)
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Re: HeroQuest canon? needs a CANNON if you ask me

Postby Kurgan » December 14th, 2020, 6:53 pm

I'm going to gloss over earlier comments about biblical canons, as the history of ancient councils is often poorly understood by those who didn't study it in school, which would be most people (no offense). In terms of fictional franchises, we know what is meant by "canon." It's the "rule" of "what is the authentic official part of the story." Why does it matter? I'll get to that later in this book, I mean, post, I'm writing. This was too good a thread to pass up!

To me it must be that there are separate canons. Yes, you could view it as some modernist, absolutist way and say whatever the CURRENT version of the game offers and whatever the CURRENT owners of the franchise say about it today, is what goes. But after being part of so many franchises that have been revived, remade, rebooted and (sometimes just frankly mismanaged) I say, in the spirit of my UK friends "bollocks!"

To pick on a franchise I have loved for a long time, Star Wars, George Lucas, who created the franchise (but sold it all off seven years ago), changed his mind multiple times over the years, re-interpreting his own franchise, changing his mind about the backstory, saying contradictory things about it, and then modifying his own films, multiple times, across multiple releases (and even re-releasing older versions of the same films, or at least okaying their release). He approved a huge "Expanded Universe" of materials and when he starting making his Prequel films, basically rewrote/rebooted big sections of it (many would say he also contradicted the older films with the new movies). Part of the Expanded Universe was called "Infinities" and it was explicitly created as non-canon, what is known in the comics world as "what if" stories that had nothing to do with the rest of the continuity.

Then Lucas sold the franchise and brand to Disney which took over and re-branded the vast majority of the officially licensed material (comics, novels, technical manuals, games, toys) aka the Expanded Universe into "LEGENDS" and called it non-canon. The thing is, they actually re-released a lot of that material that had been out of print for years, with nothing changed but a few logos on the cover! And its obvious to many that elements from the "non-canon Legends" have made their way into the subsequent "canon" movies and tv shows created by Disney. So it's a mess. That's just one example showing how unimportant the term can be in a major franchise to fans like me.

Then we have Highlander which as my handle evokes, is something I'm a fan of, where essentially the same people made the whole thing, but every new installment contradicted and/or reinvented the mythos, introducing numerous continuity breaking contradictions and yet referencing each other as if they were somehow meant to go together.

And as far as what's going on with Doctor Who, don't ask me...

So I'm USED to franchises making a mess and a mockery of the term "canon."

For Hero Quest we have several continuities that must be mutually exclusive:

1) The Premiere Edition of the Game. You could say this blends into or is replaced by #2, but there are a few narrative bits of training in the instruction booklet and the spells are slightly different as well as the rules. Also the first Quest was different (replaced in the 2nd Edition by The Trial).

2) The 2nd EU Edition of the Game, from which is followed by Kellar's Keep, Return of the Witch Lord, Dark Company (Advanced Quest), Against the Ogre Horde and Wizards of Morcar. Simple enough. In this version the white bearded guy in red with the black cape is implied, but not explicitly stated, to be Mentor and Morcar is unseen.

3) The Marvel Comics special. This takes off from #2, but explicitly indicates the white bearded dude is Mentor and introduces a new image of a cloaked monster dude who is Morcar. So you could say maybe all these three are together and it's still 1 continuity... okay so far.

4) The Sticker Album. This blends with #2, but explicitly makes the White beard dude Morcar. And Mentor is introduced as his identical twin wearing a blue cloak and skullcap. Contradicts #3. So two continuities.

5) NA release. Here there's no explicit links to Evil Santa being Mentor. Instead most of us assumed he was Zargon (not Morcar in this version). New rules, and many changes overall. A bit like a third edition, but some things from 2nd Ed. EU are missing, and some other things are added or changed. Followed by a changed version of Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord, then Mage of the Mirror and the Frozen Horror Elf and Barbaran Quest packs. Unlike in the EU expansions, Sir Ragnar was not an executed traitor. Some characters in Quests have their names changed, as well. Some have pointed to the removal of some Warhammer Fantasy connections that were much more explicit in the EU versions and even allege a break within this from the release of KK/ROTWL and EQP/BQP but I won't assume that's a true break. Continuity #3.

6) Japan Game System. We don't really know but from what I've seen all of the other localizations seem to be pretty much identical to the EU or NA versions, but this one is very unique. Despite having almost the same components as the EU version, the rules are completely different and many of the descriptions are different. Very unique and not followed by any Quest packs. Continuity #4.

7) The Computer Games. You could say this blends into #2, since they are based directly on the EU version. Some anomalies (like the Wizard being able to use all equipment, or being able to combine a Staff or Spear with a shield) that could be considered cheats, but otherwise it's pretty much the same thing. It's followed by a sequel, Hero Quest II: Legacy of Sorasil, that adds in many monsters from D&D Lore, and new Hero characters and spells, but otherwise pretty much fits and follows. However, the PC version of the original HQ game by Gremlin which has the Quests of the Game System, [Edit: only the unreleased NES/Famicom game had Kellar's Keep and] Return of the Witch Lord does include imagery of Mentor or Zargon that does NOT match any previous artwork seen before. It's strongly implied that the Enraged Father Christmas figure is Morcar. The NES game was basically a stripped down version of the PC game and only exists in leaked prototype form. The various other HeroQuest digital games (Vassal and Tabletop Simulator mods, Isometric HeroQuest, etc.) out there are fan-made and so don't really count. So this could be continuity #5.

8) Hasbro's 2021 Remake. Includes the Game System, Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord plus two new Quest books which are known only by scant data (one sample quest, a sample introduction and two cover pages). The full extent of changes and differences in this version, that used the NA edition as a base, are not known. But major changes like Dread replacing Chaos, and Abomination fish men replacing Fimirs and new Heroes (most notably an "Orc Bard") seem to indicate this is Continuity #6.

9) Advanced Hero Quest. I have never played it. I've only briefly glanced at its materials. I got the impression it was meant to be a remake/reboot of the original game rather than a sequel. Had expansion materials as well. Not counting Mighty Heroes/Warriors since it was apparently a totally different game using the same miniatures (and similar artwork?). So this may or may not be Continuity #7. I won't go into "Battle Masters" or "Space Crusade" as these seem to be either spiritual sequels or set in the same universe possibly but not necessarily, similar to how Warhammer Fantasy could be seen as the inspiration but only loosely so. And we won't count tributes like Warhammer Quest, Altar Quest, or other products made by the same people like Heroscape. "Hero's Quest" (or the "other" Hero Quest is a completely different product (same with "Elf Quest").

10) The tv commercials. Yes, the now infamous memed "fire of roth" (and the US version "fire of wrath") tv commercials differ somewhat from the released game. Miniatures, furniture and dice are different, card art and descriptions are different. This is obviously a prototype (also glimpsed in the flyers included with many sets and magazine stock photos). This is more of a joke here than anything, because it's a prototype, rather than continuity #8. I pay tribute here because like many children of that era, this was my first exposure to the game, seeing these ads on TV, and totally sold me on it. :mrgreen:

Do "published quests" become canon? I would say generally no. The Quests included in the novels could be considered canon for the EU continuity (published in the UK only). But the quests published in those news letters and even White Dwarf magazine (official for promoting Gamesworkshop's citadel products) were fan submissions, were they not? So those would be no different than if you or I wrote a quest. We're encouraged to do them, but it doesn't change the world. Yes, they released new miniatures to promote some of them, but again, we're talking about fan submissions in most cases. The Marvel Comics ("Revenge of the Weather Man") special might be closer to something you could call canon, I guess, based on a certain continuity. None of that seems to be part of the NA continuity.

But it would seem that there are at least SIX continuities within Hero Quest. I don't think it's as simple as saying that the NA continuity overrides the others, and therefore the Hasbro remake overrides the NA one. It seems obvious to me that the current owners of the franchise are making it up as they go along, and freely changing, adding to and borrowing from past continuities to make the current one, even if in large part its still the same old thing. I also wouldn't side with the few who have argued, that the UK version is the only "real" one since that's the country where it first originated (in that case, they are ignoring the Remake I guess or plan to modify it).

Did I miss anything?

But what is the point of "canon" in a fictional entertainment franchise like this? The practical point of the "canon" is like having a "writers bible." You establish early on the parameters of your fiction. What is possible or permissible and what is not. The fans may not know all these details, but it helps you keep your own franchise continuity straight, which strengthens suspension of disbelief. Yes, games are meant to be different, the players put their own spin on every session and here you're actively encouraging creativity. But a "canon" prevents you from releasing a sequel expansion that wildly contradicts a previous installment. Yes, there are clever and not so clever ways in which you can make changes and still make it fit ("it was all a dream," time travel, parallel dimensional travel, "a wizard did it," etc) but they can strain credibility and upset fans of the established continuity. But it's fantasy, none of it is "real." Since you can pretend and re-invent and put your own spin on it (and are being encouraged to do so, by the creators) it's easy to brush off or ignore odd choices. If the fans hate a certain expansion, the creators don't need to come out apologize for it and release a new installment that says "that other stuff never happened, yo."

If the point of "canon" is to say "what really happened in the game" I can't be bothered. Imagine if you are a D&D player and you want to play 2nd edition. Is someone going to bust down your door and say "No! You must only play the latest 5th edition!" ? That won't happen. As long as your players are willing to go along with it, you can do whatever you want and have at it. The current owners of the franchise can't stop you from going to a thrift shop or online and buying a pre-owned copy of the "outdated" or "obsolete" version. So Hero Quest may be "out of print" as far as Hasbro is concerned, but they can't stop us from enjoying it.

Now some franchises can "enforce" changes to a certain extent. I'm not part of those communities, but I'm told that certain competitive CCG frachises have official tournaments and things (Pokemon, Magic the Gathering) and they will impose rules upon what editions or series's (whatever you call them) of cards you can use. But HeroQuest has no such limitations. And last I checked, they weren't banning fans from Star Trek conventions for dressing up like 1960s TOS, when Discovery and Picard are out (Star Trek explains its many continuity problems with "many-worlds" Time Travel, and Trek has a long history of producing non-canon novels). But as there are no Hero Quest official tournament committees, nobody cares about this part. And even if they existed, they couldn't stop our private game sessions with whatever material we want to use.

There are simply multiple canons, and I accept it. This doesn't mean that if I fly over to the UK and set foot on English soil, suddenly the NA version I grew up with vanishes and is replaced with the EU edition, but it does mean that I can expect people there will tend to recall that version and not mine. It's more like various food products out there. There are different formulations of Coca-Cola and Pepsi in different countries. There are different versions of the Mars candy bar. McDonalds is different in different territories and so on. They're just as official and just as beloved by their respected communities, so one doesn't override the other and in fact sometimes people outside those territories prefer it to their "localization." So generally speaking the term "canon" is pretty watered down and useless when it comes to HeroQuest. What is "official" for your gaming session is the rules you find in the box. But since this is a moddable game, even that is easily set aside as most of us do to varying degrees.
Last edited by Kurgan on July 5th, 2021, 2:11 pm, edited 9 times in total.


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Re: HeroQuest canon?

Postby Kurgan » December 14th, 2020, 7:38 pm

And my take on "authorial intent" is "that's fine," and I give it a lot of weight normally, especially when it's one person rather than a big collaborative effort, but these days I also take it with a grain of salt. If we were talking about something created by one guy (say, Tolkein's "Lord of the Rings") and we had explicit clarification from the author saying "I intended X" you could take it at face value. Now Tolkien, judging by his published notes, changed his mind over the years, so if you wanted to "answer a question" about the lore, it would depend upon "what year Tolkien are you talking about?" If an author says they "always intended" something but left explicit evidence that they intended the opposite earlier, that seems to indicate they are fibbing or not remembering (here I'm thinking of George Lucas saying one thing in interviews, then changing his story later and saying he never said that... or leaked script drafts contradicting what he claimed were his original intentions about certain things in the movies). We can never know what is in someone's head, we can only judge by the evidence at hand. Even when it's one guy, when he's saying something many decades after the fact, how do I know I can trust it?

So if Stephen Baker comes out and says something, that's great. It's his right and as the creative mind behind the original game, he's owed respect and I find it interesting. I want to hear what he has to say, of course! But we don't have to accept it, and I don't have to implement it in my gaming sessions, especially if it contradicts the evidence of what was previously established. The example I keep coming back to is Zargon/Morcar and Mentor's identity. It is clear to me now that he right now intends the Disgruntled Beard Guy to be Mentor, not Zargon. That's cool. I'll accept that as the intention behind the Hasbro 2021 Edition. I could even buy it was his personal intention, probably, for the EU editions. But clearly not everyone agreed. The Marvel Comics special agreed, but the Sticker Album explicitly contradicted that, and the Computer game strongly hinted against it. His intention was not made clear in the NA version and so fans like me are resistant to that opinion for that edition, mostly due to nostalgia, but still (it's like finding out that the Captain America you grew up with was working for Hydra all along... we knew all along Austin... no you didn't, you just made that up recently to swerve everyone!). So there's just no resolution. There's the intention of the creator and then there's the proof of your own lying eyes, that the official product had variations that didn't always coincide with that "original vision/intention." It's not quite so severe as George Lucas saying he always intended for the Special Editions of the Star Wars Trilogy to be the only version (which version? there are at least FOUR versions of those re-releases now), but still.

I'm not bashing Stephen Baker here, please don't misunderstand. And agree or disagree, he seems like a decent guy who cares about his baby, despite not having the kind of creative control (I imagine) that belongs to Hasbro. It's not outlandish to acknowledge that the art in the NA version was ambiguous, and as even the EU material was contradictory, nobody can be blamed for taking on this impression and over time it has its own weight. You can't erase the fact that that's still Zargon to me, dangit! :(

In the end though, it's not that big a deal. The names or looks of certain characters doesn't really impact the basic gameplay or fun. The rule differences between versions (EU, NA and Japanese) are far more jarring, and if you grew up with one, that's the one that's going to feel most natural to you, I would think. I accept the new version and the creator(s) intentions for this one, without allowing it to somehow replace and "erase" the previous versions which existed simultaneously with one another in their contradictions.

My general rule of thumb for a franchise is that if it's good, I'm inclined to agree with those who says its canon, even if it has some rough edges in terms of continuity, and if it sucks, I'm inclined to more easily ignore it, or consider it a one-off.

I guess my personal head-canon, etc. for Hero Quest is the NA releases plus the unique EU expansions and quests and the Japanese Game System (using NA rules, which by definition are a fan-creation). I have printed out all the published quests, but as I have yet to play any of them, so I can't say how I feel about them just yet. The rest of the stuff is interesting, but ultimately inconsequential. I like my house rules, that nobody in the world cares about but me and the people I happen to be playing with (many of them adapted from you fine folk here!). But I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that multiple continuities exist. And if I were at your gaming table, I'm happy to play it according to the version you're using, even if it's not my preferred one.


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Re: HeroQuest canon?

Postby wallydubbs » December 16th, 2020, 11:12 am

That's one of the great things about playing with such generic characters and the Rule of Zargon. In each Game Zargon is granted the liberties to change the dungeon layout or even the rules if he like.
Names of characters and places (Witch Lord, Black Fire Pass, etc..) written in the quest book shouldn't be changed, unless Zargon feels a need for continuity. Suppose the heroes escape Quest 6 Legacy of the Orc Warlord without killing Grak; I don't see any issues in removing a letter in Ograk's name from Keller's Keep, Eastern Passage to bring back an enemy that was never properly killed off.

As Hero Quest is undeniably based off of Warhammer, we're free to accept that as canon. However certain names are added or changed from preexisting places, such as Kalos from Return of the Witch Lord or White Mountain in Frozen Horror. Unless Zargon takes the creative liberty to change it, names in the quest book are more canon then War Hammer.

Some players, though, are not familiar with the world of Warhammer, so despite the Witch Lord fitting into an Undead status as a Litch, by that standard, Hero Quest never specified that Litches exists. As Zargon, I can take creative control over that question.
In a stroke of creative inspiration, I could add a backstory to Felmarg and why removing Verag from his tomb is so important. This can thus become canon in my Hero Quest group.

We all play Hero Quest slightly different to varying degrees. I highly doubt any two Morcar/Zargon's in the Inn play Hero Quest exactly the same. And I'm sure there are some of us in here that change the story as the game progresses. What is Hero Quest canon is subjective to the Zargon player just as all hero players are able to mold their characters in name and personality.

In essence we are all part of the Hero Quest multiverse. Each play group can develop their own lore and backstory using the quest books as a story guide. The most basic of groups feature 4 heroes (usually the Barbarian, Elf, Dwarf and Wizard). As each of us are playing an alternate timeline with subtle differences, such as the heroes names and so forth.
So what others consider canon in their game isn't necessarily the same as mine.

There's room for world building in each of our games and we don't necessarily have to accept Warhammer as canon.


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Re: HeroQuest canon?

Postby Kurgan » December 16th, 2020, 5:28 pm

Excellent point "canon in my Hero Quest group." I like the idea of carrying stuff over from session to session. But other times it's clear we're starting totally from scratch. Here is yet another possible adventure from the world of Hero Quest...

What fun would it be if once you killed off the big bad guy, nobody else ever got a shot at him? It's like a video game, you hit reset and it's your turn to take the wheel, and this time it might be different... but you're even more free than if you had a game genie (action replay or gameshark for you youngin's), or the skill of the original game developers...


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