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Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discussion

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discus

Postby knightkrawler » Tuesday July 19th, 2016 3:49am

Goblin-King wrote:You can't just choose to ignore a map printed in the official material!
The other maps are also just Warhammer maps...

A better discussion would be whether the sticker album is to be considered canon.


I meant it shouldn't be too much pondered over because it is a simple Old World map as per Warhammer, not HeroQuest.
Of course HQ is on the same map and there shouldn't be any debate about that fact,
I'm just saying if QorDaqs findings are ambiguous with this map, then I say Qordaq wins because of the alternate reality schwingamadongs.
That's basically my point, not more not less.
No effort was put into printing this map on the back of the book, as no effort was put in other things original HQ. We know of this sloppiness, why ignore it now?

The sticker album I don't consider canon, for various reasons.
Morcar being depicted at all, taking away from the mystery, overall quality of writing and art, the licensing circumstances...
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Re: Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discus

Postby Big Bene » Tuesday July 19th, 2016 6:44am

Well, I like the idea as a creative venture, but I don't know if it is a benefit in the long run.

Definite information - call it Canon, Coherence, Continuity or whatever - is always also a restriction of creativity and fantasy.
On the other hand, a certain amount of information - some mystirious sounding place names, a map that leaves enough room for imagination - can indeed trigger the creativity.

Perhaps - just an idea, not sure if it is really better - we can make a compendium instead of a map. The place names QorDaq collected, plus names of characters, races, historical events etc. with a short description and citation of the source. Just to get the "canonical" material from the original puplications together in one place for reference. This could be considered "lore" inside the game world. Characters may konw these things. They are "common knowledge", but as with real "common knowledge" (even more so in a medieval world), much of it is hearsay, and little is known for sure. The distinction between knowlege and legend are blurred at best.



Having sayd this, I stlill have a taste for maps and if we really decide to give the map project a go, I would like to be part of it.

Of course, we would have to decide what is canon. As for me, everything that is published under the Milton Bradly Heroquest license is canon. This would make the Marvel Winter special canon, the sticker album semi canon and the White Dwarf quests apocryphe. AHQ is not HQ canon, it is clearly and deliberately fully set in the Warhammer world, there is no Mentor nor Morkar*, and it is not MB licensed.

As canonisation goes, some of the original sources may contradict each other, and the "canonisators" have to decide what should go into the canon. In HQ, this is mostly the case with the Sticker album, which pitily is also the source of the most detailed map. Luckily, the "heretic" issues in the sticker album are mostly in the comic and doesn't affect the map that much.

I would take the following way:
- Use the map from RotW as a base
- Add the places and points of interest from the Sticker album map. If these contradict the RotW map or any other more canonical lore, leave them aside.
- Add the places from QorDaq's collection, plus any other we may find.
- When there are places that are mentioned but not localized in HQ sources, for which the location can be found in Warhammer sources, and this doesn't contradict any information in HQ sources, then, and only then, the Warhammer information is used.
- From these sources, make a "plain" map with just coastlines, places and names - no graphics, formatting etc.

- Taking this as a base, make various "graphic" maps.
Beautiful ones. Practical ones.
In-game ones that look like hand drawn on parchment.
Incomplete ones etc pp.

I would recommend to agree on a free map-making software to use, so we can share work and use and edit the maps other members provide. I have used https://sourceforge.net/projects/autorealm/ with satisfying results, but there may be better choices out there (automatically fractaled coastlines may be useful when creating a new world from the scratch, but not so much when trying to closely redraw a costline on an existing map. Perhaps we should even use a simple vector drawing software (incscape?) and leave the mapping refinements for the last step.

*One could implecitely include the Morkar of Warhammer lore in the distant past, but he is not mentioned and definitely doesn't play the role as in HQ.

PS.:
QorDaq, could you please replace the acronyms with full names in the citations? May be even truncated, but in a form that leaves them recognizeable at a glance. Just copy the list in a text processor and do a quick search and replace.
Have a look ;)


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Re: Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discus

Postby Goblin-King » Tuesday July 19th, 2016 7:35am

Big Bene wrote:Definite information - call it Canon, Coherence, Continuity or whatever - is always also a restriction of creativity and fantasy.

I simply straight up disagree with this. I find a coherent detailed world easier to navigate. Having certain things set forces you to leave your creative comfort zone.
This place has these races and this backstory? It's located near X? This quest/campaign almost writes itself!
But this is of course very subjective ;)

Big Bene wrote:PS.:
QorDaq, could you please replace the acronyms with full names in the citations? May be even truncated, but in a form that leaves them recognizeable at a glance. Just copy the list in a text processor and do a quick search and replace.

This! Oh, so much this!
Or at least the regular abbreviations for the quest packs - KK, RotWL, AtOH, WoM, FH, MotM


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Re: Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discus

Postby Big Bene » Tuesday July 19th, 2016 7:57am

Goblin-King wrote:
Big Bene wrote:Definite information - call it Canon, Coherence, Continuity or whatever - is always also a restriction of creativity and fantasy.

I simply straight up disagree with this. I find a coherent detailed world easier to navigate. Having certain things set forces you to leave your creative comfort zone.
This place has these races and this backstory? It's located near X? This quest/campaign almost writes itself!

That's what I meant when I wrote:
On the other hand, a certain amount of information - some mystirious sounding place names, a map that leaves enough room for imagination - can indeed trigger the creativity.

Canon is a double-edged sword.
In my opinion there are examples where you can tell that the continuity became so strong it hinders the fantasy in Fantasy.
Early to middle Diskworl books are wise, hilarious and complex. The late ones are boring and self-referntial.
Star Wars and Babylon 5 have fiction, narrative freedom, grandeur and drama. Star treck (exept the original series) has science, continuity, predictability and boredom. The hobbit is great reading. The lord of the rings a great story but a pain in the ass to read.

Well, but these are just thoughts. We can agree that canon can hinder and help creativity, depending on many things.
Have a look ;)


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Re: Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discus

Postby QorDaq » Tuesday July 19th, 2016 1:11pm

Big Bene wrote:PS.:
QorDaq, could you please replace the acronyms with full names in the citations? May be even truncated, but in a form that leaves them recognizeable at a glance. Just copy the list in a text processor and do a quick search and replace.


Sure, I can take a crack at that. I had created the citation list the way I did to specify Quest Books, but that probably is not necessary. I am also guessing that if there are specific and commonly accepted shorthand for each source I may not be aware of all of them;

How would the following be?

AtOH = Against the Ogre Hoard
AuM = Adventures Unlimited Magazine (Followed by issue number)
CQB = Core Quest Book
DBM = Dragao Brazil Magazine (Followed by issue number)
DMQ = Dave Morris Quest (Followed by Novel Title)
FH = The Frozen Horror
KK = Kellar's Keep
MotM = Maze of the Mirror
MWS = Marvel Winter Special
RotWL = Return of the Witch Lord
WD = White Dwarf (Followed by issue number)
WoM = Wizards of Morcar

I suggest using this style of citation over full source names in the list, since adding the full source for each entry may make the list look busier than it already does. Depending on the final version(s) there could always be footnotes or similar if full sources are deemed necessary for each entry. Alternately, there could, as in the case of a compendium, be a more detailed write up for each location which could include full citations for each section or the like.

In fact, the idea of a compendium is a really good one that need not be to the exclusion of a reworking/ creation of a map.

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Re: Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discus

Postby QorDaq » Tuesday July 19th, 2016 1:45pm

As a separate but related note on the question of canon sources, I actually feel that there are "levels" of canon in most genre' and that this idea could apply here as well.

Example:

Canon = Source material published under the Milton Bradley IP such as the Base Game and Expansions, regardless of version.
Soft-canon = Source Material published by other entities but supporting the HQ universe, such as from magazines or novels, etc. Supports the classic definition of Apocrypha.
Fanon = Source material created, converted, and/or referenced for/by the community.

The trickiest questions are when it comes to looking at conversion quests from say AHQ or WHQ (classic).

Personally, I am not adverse to incorporating lore from all three games, so long as there were some consensuses that the HQ game world itself is unique, however closely resembling other worlds. Same could be said for conversion of other games like Battle Masters, Dark World, Dragon Strike, etc. where monsters, spells, quests and what have you appear in a HQ format.

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Re: Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discus

Postby Anderas » Tuesday July 19th, 2016 2:44pm

I just took a look at the map that i used: It is a map of the old world of Warhammer.

I really can't see the big differences except that we use only a part, and then a magnification in HQ.

I don't know if it is correct or anything... but it shall be a good basis for playing.

I used the questbook as basis,
made two story progressions,
added exactly one quest (find Gulthor)
and than came to this chart and this Map.
It is intended to provide some overland questing as well.
Plan is to add Kellars Keep, Ogre Hordes, Witch Lord and WoM as well, so the heroes have always something to discover if they travel somewhere.
Red quests are to be discovered only if the correct predecessor was already played,
Blue quests are for free discovering during overland travel, or if the EWP Card "Map" is drawn.
Purple quests are forced on the heroes. Here i want some more.

Target is in fact, to have in every fourth or fifth square some quest.
Well. First finish with the original HQ Questbooks. :)
Click for Big.

Image
Image

So shoot me now. :)

The Map is put together from two smaller pieces (Goblin King's "classic Warhammer Map"), in some hours of stitching and connecting broken lines and repainting some mountains. It is smaller than it could be, just because it is exported from Powerpoint. The original size, you can have here:
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Re: Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discus

Postby The Road Warrior » Wednesday July 20th, 2016 7:11pm

Heres a couple I think you missed

The Dark Lands - KK (into & Grins crag intro)
The Dark Lands lie to the east of the Worlds Edge Mountains.
The World's Edge Mountains stretch along the Eastern Edge of the Empire...
...On the eastern side of the mountains the Dwarves constructed huge fortresses to guard against the Dark Lands. The greatest of these was Karak Varn.

Kellars Keep (UK) intro

Nb: you can update the location of the Worlds Edge Mountains in your original post based on this quote.

Keloths Tor (KK intro) / Keloths Hill (KK - Hall of Dwarven Kings intro)
Site of a great battle between Dwarves and Orcs. The Dwarven King Holgar won a great victory, securing many years peace for the dwarves of the Worlds Edge Mountains.
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Re: Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discus

Postby QorDaq » Wednesday July 20th, 2016 8:55pm

Thank you for the additional entries I missed. I likely will not get to fully update until next week, but when I update the source info I can add these as well.

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Re: Definitive, Unofficially Official, HQ Cartography Discus

Postby Anderas » Friday July 22nd, 2016 3:05pm

Just tried to localize Kellar's Keep.

Karak Varn is easily findable. Northeast of the Black Fire Pass.
The east gate, on the other hand, seems to be a little bit very far away from Karak Varn. Doesn't seem logical to travel a 600 miles under the mountain.

All the other places of the quest book seem to be under the mountains, at least i was not able to find them.
next i try rotwl! I don't give up fast! :) :lol:


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