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Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga too?

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Will you be picking up HQ25 or Dungeon Saga?

I crowdfunded HQ25 and Dungeon Saga
2
4%
I crowdfunded HQ25
8
17%
I crowdfunded Dungeon Saga
9
19%
I hate HQ25 and Dungeon Saga (Long live the original Heroquest!)
7
15%
I hate HQ25
7
15%
I hate Dungeon Saga
0
No votes
I will be picking up HQ25 or Dungeon Saga if either gets a favorable review
14
30%
 
Total votes : 47

Re: Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga t

Postby Grossey » Thursday June 25th, 2015 11:26am

I guess it was a long time ago. Reviewing the Lanzanos update section, the crowdfunding ended on December 2013. It looks like they have made progress with the game, but when you review all of the stretch goals there is a lot of content that has not been released anywhere on the interwebs.

I'm surprised to see that there aren't more supporters of the new HQ25 game. I feel that if anyone should get royalties from the "success" of HQ25, it is Stephen Baker the developer of the game. When Milton Bradley let the rights of the game (or the game's name) in 1995, Hasbro lost all claims for any future product. Games Workshop still retains rights to all of the copy-writable monsters and references to the Warhammer IP. Would people be upset if GW released an updated version of Advanced Heroquest?

It appears that Gamezone is not a very professional company, and they are just a few steps up from creating a fan made project. My guess is that they thought they did their due diligence, but were lazy and didn't follow through with Gloranthia to distribute the game in the US. Gamezone thought they had the resources and the talent to create a great homage to Heroquest, but they weren't smart in how they went about it. Anytime there is money and royalties involved, things can get ugly. I understand that people don't like to be lied to and deceived. Realistically, it likely will not do well outside of Spain. It will likely just be a collectors set with a limited release number.

I'm glad to see there are some Dungeon Saga supports on here. That is the best chance for fans of HQ to see some parts of the game they love get in the hands of new players. I don't think HQ25 will do that. HQ25 will never get distribution around the world.

All in all, it is a good time to be a fan of Heroquest. More is better, right? I'm excited to get my Twisting Catacombs classic set.

Best case: HQ25 will be a well written game, using the original game mechanics to expand the game in a new direction. And, people can have new miniatures and boards to play their old game on.
Realistic case: HQ25 will be a rules mess with junk quests that are not fun or balanced. But, there will be great new figures and boards to play with. Fans can create new content to incorporate HQ25 stuff with original HQ stuff.
Worst case: Idiots like me that supported the Lanzanos campaign will get the shaft and never be sent anything. The HQ25 project will die a slow death. Gamezone will try to sell some of their new sculpts as scab content for HQ and wargaming.

By the way, I was hoping there would be somebody on the boards that was excited as I am about HQ25 coming out. Do you think a forum post about HQ25 game progress will be well received? Or, will the disdain for the project keep it from creating any buzz or excitement for HQ.


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Re: Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga t

Postby knightkrawler » Thursday June 25th, 2015 3:35pm

The funniest thing about it all... I mean the most hilarious, ludicrously outrageous misstep of them all...
in 21 months since introducing the world to the project they couldn't find one man or woman who speaks fluent Spanish and English and is a HQ fan to have the nomenclature down.
21 freakin' months, no news in any other language than Spanish. Go trust those people!
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Re: Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga t

Postby Anderas » Thursday June 25th, 2015 3:38pm

On Kickstarter, Lanzanos or other Websites, you never "participate", you never "support".

You pre-order.



And such are the claims people can have in the court. It would be quite dangerous for Gamezones not to publish it.

There ARE, however, pics and videos of nearly all game pieces. Search for "Heroquest Forja" in Youtube. He presents every model in a two-minutes-video. There is also a video of the factory, with model heaps right until the roof. It would be a huge loss not only in front of the court if they are not able to deliver now. It would be the death of Gamezones.

Gamezones, on the other hand, has no bad reputation apart from being notorious late, always, even in "normal" run mode.


So, what do we have?
- Pics of heaps of models
- Pics of nearly all single models (including a six-legged spider :shock: :D )
- An update all three months (which upsets everybody)
- A problem with US Law leading to not publishing in the USA
- a spanish preview of the rules

What will i have?
- A Gameboard, furniture and a lot of models to play the old HQ
- The option to play HQ25 or HQ or HQ Sjeng or HQ Goblin King or HQ Flint with it; or HQ Anderas if i like. No-one is using the original rules anyway.
- .3d resin markers for traps and blocked squares which are quite beautiful
- Modular tiles to extend the Game Board
- Enough time to finish the renovation of my house before

...

Zealot additional furniture Conan Zombicide Black Plaque

yes i couldn't stop myself. That was stupid.


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Re: Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga t

Postby Goblin-King » Thursday June 25th, 2015 4:37pm

Anderas wrote:The option to play HQ25 or HQ or HQ Sjeng or HQ Goblin King or HQ Flint with it; or HQ Anderas if i like. No-one is using the original rules anyway.

Ahem...! I assume "HQ Goblin King" means playing by the original rules? Which is a very good option ;)

back to topic:

I don't hate HQ25 as much as I just think it shouldn't exist.
Basically I see them as scammers with a get rich quick scheme.
It's not hero quest. It's a game copying HQ.
I think it's a clear cut case of plagiarizing and violation of copyright.
Even if they DO have the right to use the name "HeroQuest", they don't have the right to use the original game's expression.
The 4 hero archetypes, same monster races, 4 elemental schools of magic, the identical layout of the board etc. etc...
Any single of these violations might not hold up in court, but as a whole the game is clearly copying the expression of the original game. Which is illegal.


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Re: Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga t

Postby cornixt » Thursday June 25th, 2015 5:21pm

Dungeon Saga looks good, but I don't need it right now.

HQ25 looks good, but I never had any confidence that they could pull it off. From the huge disorganisation at the start, to half-truths and misrepresentations, it's still crapshoot whether those who pledged are even going to get what they ordered - and if it gets sent out it might get confiscated by customs due to the rights dispute. They made a big deal about getting it done by December, and failed miserably. I don't hate the game, if it had been called DungeonCrawl25+ or something like that from the start then these would just be seen as the common delays you get from a Kickstarter and there wouldn't be the mistrust.


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Re: Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga t

Postby IvenBach » Thursday June 25th, 2015 9:48pm

knightkrawler wrote:21 freakin' months, no news in any other language than Spanish. Go trust those people!

Pretty much sums it up... Any company that tries to make an honest attempt would get some level of appropriate translation? All I see from this is 'All your base are belong to us'. I just laugh at them as how you shouldn't run a company. To each their own.


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Re: Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga t

Postby Anderas » Friday June 26th, 2015 1:43am

Goblin King, your rules are very close to vanilla, but there are extensions to it. So it is not Vanilla.
Don't get me wrong, at the moment I like your rules most and I use them.


About HQ25, what you don't like is that they use your "sacred" name of HQ. Well. You do. With all of your variants. Why shouldn't they, for their variant?

After, it is obvious they had been beginners when they started the project. They are not anymore, this is for sure. If they ever do this again, they will be prepared.
There are other people with much more experience running into the same difficulties. Look at Paolo Parente's Dust. You can't say this guy has no experience. It is just like that if you preorder before the game is even in production: there is some high risks you can't see before production begins. There are all kinds of traps and difficulties waiting in the industrial partnership you have to have with a manufacturer.

In this, Thantos dungeon interior is an exception because his customers, less than a thousand, allow to do the prototyping and production mostly in house with no on boarding of inexperienced people.


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Re: Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga t

Postby Diggin » Friday June 26th, 2015 4:17am

Anderas wrote:About HQ25, what you don't like is that they use your "sacred" name of HQ. Well. You do. With all of your variants. Why shouldn't they, for their variant?

Because they're a company who ask money for their product. It's the basis for IP and TM laws i think, if GobKing would ask money he'd be in the same boat. I know it's a bit silly in this situation but if they had just changed the name most of the angry mobs wouldn't be here.
(why silly you ask? because games such as these are based on HQ and it should have some sort of option to name itself 'HQ wannabee' to show outsiders what it's about. Zealot Mini's for example is a perfect addition for a game as HQ but they cannot use the name without permission, which i think prevents many players from finding it online.)
but... It's just weird that you have to ask permission with people who have nothing to do with Heroquest other than owning the name. But.. that's the law. either you follow the rules, or you break them. they could go at this in a better way.

Anderas wrote:In this, Thantos dungeon interior is an exception because his customers, less than a thousand, allow to do the prototyping and production mostly in house with no on boarding of inexperienced people.


Gamezone are HQ fans themselves. If i'm not mistaken they are basing their HQ25 on the spanish fan-fora, so most of their ideas are taken from there. I even recognised some of the tiles they are using as they already exist online.
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Re: Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga t

Postby Anderas » Friday June 26th, 2015 6:58am

Because they're a company who ask money for their product. It's the basis for IP and TM laws i think, if GobKing would ask money he'd be in the same boat. I know it's a bit silly in this situation but if they had just changed the name most of the angry mobs wouldn't be here.


Yes exactly. The angry mob is angry because their church gets new windows, but they liked the old church with the old windows and they feel it is like somebody peeing on their altar. It is not like that, but the feeling is like that. It is because a worldwide sold brand name gets changed. Today you talk about Hero Quest, it is Hero Quest of MB. If Gamezone succeeds, and you say Hero Quest, people will understand "Gamezone's Hero Quest". This feels like taking away something. This is what makes people angry - they feel their beloved game will be forgotten, drowned by the noise a new game is producing.

It will not happen. The opposite, i think Gamezone's action was driving people back to the original. I feel that Dungeon Saga was clearly visible a reaction on that, for example.

The IP problematic is a different topic alltogether. They have worldwide presented that they indeed are beginners in a garage workshop.

- Not to look up the IP you want to sell is a beginners failure, and a heavy one.
- Not to try and find stakeholders to talk with and then to communicate like hell is a heavy beginners failure, to be seen in the ignorance they show for every community except the spanish one.
- To fix the material before the end of the funding is a failure. They committed to resin, but you can't industrialize resin on a big scale. Without material constraint they would have had the choice to produce the models in plastic. For 20 000 customers that would have been a big win for Gamezones without visible lack of quality, with a lot faster production and less delays.
- Not to have the game material prepared beforehand but instead trying to start the project after the crowdfunding was a big, big failure. Theoretically crowdfunding is intended that way. But after the funding you have all hands full with the production and industrialization, so the basic design of rules, graphics and everything that needs testing has to be ready before the crowdfunding starts. They will never repeat this failure if Dyonisos/Gamezones survives.

- To not open communicate every failure is NOT a beginners failure. It's a thing of culture. Cristian, more so evangelist cultures do so: Northern Europe and their ex-colonies like North America. And they expect it from others. But: the others just don't show the world every failure. It is feeling to most of them like showing to everybody that they forgot to close the zip of their trousers. The mediterranean cultures are mostly not like the northern european people in this aspect.
- The Dyonisos/Gamezones organization to prevent financial failure is also NOT a sign of dishonesty. It is common sense to do it this way if you're not sure you will succeed. Look at Conan/Monolith. They did the same, found a "independent" letter box subsidary in the US just to get the money from Kickstarter and to get rid of the risk. For us, it is not good because the risk is fully on us then. But if you switch perspective: You're project founder, and you're smart you would never start a project with personal risk, if you can have the same without personal risk by implementing such an organization.


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Re: Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga t

Postby Diggin » Friday June 26th, 2015 10:07am

As much fun as psychology is, i'm not going to burn my hands on cultural aspects, not on the internet xD . Personally i think it's more an 'ego' - problem with the company owner.

imagine being GZ boss in 2013. you find yourself in a situation where everyone hears about your plans to make a HQ25 game and get excited, you eagerly start laying the foundations and get faced with questions you didn't foresee
1. (--colleague: "Did you get the rights?" --boss "uhhh.. yeah ofcourse i did, you think im some kind of idiot?") ego problem
then:
2. "Boy this project is bigger than i thought... just keep going the path i started.. things will work out at some point.."

If that's the case, then the company owner is in a roller coaster ride and he's just staying the course and feeding his family. people in this sort of situations tend to avoid difficult questions as it is too confronting (and too tempting to lie).


to be honest if they would work a bit more like Thantos, this world would be a better place.
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