Page 1 of 7

Monster slaying cost

PostPosted: Sunday January 20th, 2013 10:37am
by thequester
I wonder if anybody else has done anything like this...

So, I wanted a way to compare the strengths of monsters in Hero Quest. What I came up with was a number for each monster, which I call the monster's "slaying cost". This number reflects the average amount of damage a hero in Hero Quest would take in a fight before the monster is killed. The higher the number, the tougher the monster. Two monsters with different stats but with equal slaying costs, would be equally tough to kill.

In order to calculate this number, I needed the stats of an "average hero". Looking at the stats of the four heroes, it was easy to see that 2 dice in attack and 2 in defence were a good choice. To keep things simple, I calculated with only this "average hero" fighting the monster without extra equipment or spells.

Calculation was done by a computer program I made where you input attack and defend dice for hero and monster, as well as the amount of body points the monster has. Then the program simulates 10 million fights (some hero would get a tired arm :D ) and shows the average amount of damage the hero took before the monster was defeated.

For my choice of "average hero" above, here are some slaying costs I calculated:

Goblin 0.6
Orc 1.3
Fimir (UK) 1.4
Fimir (US) 2.9
Skeleton 0.7
Zombie 0.8
Mummy (UK) 1.7
Chaos Warrior (UK) 1.7
Gargoyle (UK) 2.4
Gargoyle (US) 8.4
Stone Chaos Warrior (UK) 1.9
Ulag the Orc Warlord (UK) 2.8
Grak (UK) 2.4
Skaven Warrior (WD134) 0.7
Rat Ogre (WD134) 1.4
Troll (WD134) 1.7
Ogre Chieftain (WD145) 16.2

Now having these numbers allow for some fun. I've used them for judging how much of a threat (monster-wise) the different quests are compared to each other. Below you see a list of the main UK quests and their total sum of monster slaying costs. Just remember that any magic abilities of special monsters are not counted, so a bit of adjustment might be recommended. Also, traps do not impact these numbers.

The Maze (7.8)
Melar's Maze (12.4)
The Rescue of Sir Ragnar (13.5)
The Stone Hunter (16.0)
The Fire Mage (17.2)
Prince Magnus' Gold (17.3)
Lair of the Orc Warlord (17.7)
Race Against Time (18.4)
Castle of Mystery (21.1)
Legacy of the Orc Warlord (21.9)
Barak Tor - Barrow of the Witch Lord (14.2)
Quest for the Spirit Blade (21.3)
Return to Barak Tor (23.0)
Bastion of Chaos (27.1)
The Trial (30.0)

This just confirmed what I suspected: that "The Trial" is tougghhhhh. To me, it really should be the last of the main quests, but that would require a mod to its story I guess. Curiously, it also was the last of the main quests to be written, as it didn't appear in the first version of HQ.

Another interesting use for the slaying cost of a monster would be to multiply the number by ten, and have that be the amount of experience a hero gains by killing that monster. Personally tho, I'm not sure I wanna complicate the game by adding XP.

Thought this might be of interest to you fellow HQ'ers.

Re: Monster slaying cost

PostPosted: Sunday January 20th, 2013 2:20pm
by Sjeng
Hi and welcome to the forum, nice 1st post :D

(now pm me how you got that reward fimir thing xD)

Re: Monster slaying cost

PostPosted: Sunday January 20th, 2013 3:18pm
by TMU
We can see that, Sjeng :D

Re: Monster slaying cost

PostPosted: Monday January 21st, 2013 2:48pm
by thequester
Thanks Sjeng! Glad to be here! :D
Haha TMU :D

It's all kinda hazy to me... must have had too much dwarf ale at the olde inn... as I was about to stumble out, this foul smelling fimir stood in my way... next thing I know, I was looking at my broadsword all bloody and a dead fimir on the floor... wow, whatta day. : D

Re: Monster slaying cost

PostPosted: Monday January 21st, 2013 3:35pm
by drathe
Really interesting results. I would like to see a full list of all the monsters for both EU and US versions.

thequester wrote:Curiously, it also was the last of the main quests to be written, as it didn't appear in the first version of HQ.

A true fact I never thought of before. For US rule players, I wonder if setting all the monster BP (except for Verag) to 1 would be a good way to start. Although I personally don't like starting with The Trial because it introduces all the monster types and furniture pieces right away. I like saving some surprises for later. ;)

Is your program something that can be made available to all of us? For those of us designing quests, it would be a good tool to judge the difficulty when introducing new monster types into the game.


thequester wrote:Thanks Sjeng! Glad to be here! :D
Haha TMU :D

It's all kinda hazy to me... must have had too much dwarf ale at the olde inn... as I was about to stumble out, this foul smelling fimir stood in my way... next thing I know, I was looking at my broadsword all bloody and a dead fimir on the floor... wow, whatta day. : D

:D ;)

Re: Monster slaying cost

PostPosted: Monday January 21st, 2013 4:09pm
by Sjeng
thequester wrote:It's all kinda hazy to me... must have had too much dwarf ale at the olde inn... as I was about to stumble out, this foul smelling fimir stood in my way... next thing I know, I was looking at my broadsword all bloody and a dead fimir on the floor... wow, whatta day. : D


ImageImageImage

Re: Monster slaying cost

PostPosted: Monday January 21st, 2013 4:28pm
by Goblin-King
Another Dane! :D

This is one of the best "rating-systems" I've seen. I really like the logic.
I could imagine a matrix with monsters on one axis and the most common equipped heroes on the other.
For those using the same heroes throughout all the campaigns getting max equipment is relatively easy. Something like 3 or 4 attack and 5 defense might be more relevant.

And I'm also curious about the fimir!

Re: Monster slaying cost

PostPosted: Wednesday January 23rd, 2013 1:04pm
by thequester
Sure drathe, I'd be happy to share the program with everybody :D I wrote it in C (for speed), which should compile on all systems. I can provide you with an executable for Linux and OSX. If somebody uses Windows and knows how to compile, then we could have a Windows version too. The program runs from command-line/shell/terminal/dos whatever you call it. I agree a full US/EU list would be nice.

Like the matrix-idea Goblin-King :D Maybe someone could set up such a matrix/table somewhere online, and anybody who computes numbers could contribute to the table? Sounds really useful.

Re: Monster slaying cost

PostPosted: Monday January 28th, 2013 2:55pm
by Daedalus
Here's a table that can be part of this thread. I can add more monsters as the data becomes available. You can either post new data that I can add to this table, or quote this post and then update with any new calculations. Then remove the quote BBCode and these comments to make the table part of your post.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 AD | 2 AD . 2 AD . 2 AD | 3 AD . 3 AD . 3 AD . 3 AD . 3 AD | 4 AD . 4 AD . 4 AD . 4 AD
. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 DD | 2 DD . 3 DD . 4 DD | 2 DD . 3 DD . 4 DD . 5 DD . 6 DD | 2 DD . 3 DD . 4 DD . 5 DD
. . . . . . . ..... . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . . .|. . . . . . . . ..... . . . . . . . . . . .| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Goblin EU/NA... . . 00.0 | 00.6 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Skeleton EU/NA.... 00.0 | 00.7 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Zombie EU/NA . . . 00.0 | 00.8 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Orc EU/NA .. . . . . 02.8 | 01.3 | 01.0 | 00.8 | 00.8 | 00.6 | 00.5 | 00.4 | 00.3 | 00.6 | 00.4 | 00.3 | 00.3
Mummy EU ....... . 00.0 | 01.7 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Mummy NA . ..... . 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Fimir EU. . ....... . 00.0 | 01.4 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Fimir NA . . ...... . 00.0 | 02.9 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Chaos Warrior EU . 00.0 | 01.7 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Chaos Warrior NA . 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Stone Ch Wa EU . . 00.0 | 01.9 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Stone Ch Wa NA . . 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Gargoyle EU . .... . 00.0 | 02.4 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Gargoyle EU . .... . 00.0 | 08.4 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Ulag EU . . .... . . . 00.0 | 02.8 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Ulag NA . . . .. . . . 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Grak EU . . ..... . . 00.0 | 02.4 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Grak EU . . ..... . . 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Ogre Ch WD145.... 00.0 | 16.2 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Skav Wa WD134....00.0 | 00.7 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Rat Ogre WD134... 00.0 | 01.4 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0
Troll WD134 . . .. . 00.0 | 01.7 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0 | 00.0

Re: Monster slaying cost

PostPosted: Tuesday January 29th, 2013 1:10pm
by thequester
Great with an in-forum table Daedalus! :D
I've added some more calculations, and tried to make it easier to see where numbers are still missing.
And then I've put it in code-tags to make the table more "rigid". Hope it looks right. If the browser window is too small, then I'm sure it doesn't :D

Code: Select all
...................... 1 AD | 2 AD . 2 AD . 2 AD | 3 AD . 3 AD . 3 AD . 3 AD . 3 AD | 4 AD . 4 AD . 4 AD . 4 AD
...................... 2 DD | 2 DD . 3 DD . 4 DD | 2 DD . 3 DD . 4 DD . 5 DD . 6 DD | 2 DD . 3 DD . 4 DD . 5 DD
----------------------------|--------------------|----------------------------------|--------------------------
Goblin EU/NA ......... __._ |  0.6 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Skeleton EU/NA ....... __._ |  0.7 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Zombie EU/NA ......... __._ |  0.8 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Orc EU/NA ............  2.8 |  1.3 |  1.0 |  0.8 |  0.8 |  0.6 |  0.5 |  0.4 |  0.3 |  0.6 |  0.4 |  0.3 |  0.3
Mummy EU ............. __._ |  1.7 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Mummy NA ............. __._ |  3.3 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Fimir EU ............. __._ |  1.4 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Fimir NA ............. __._ |  2.9 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Chaos Warrior EU ..... __._ |  1.7 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Chaos Warrior NA ..... __._ |  7.3 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Stone Ch Wa EU ....... __._ |  1.9 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Stone Ch Wa NA ....... __._ |  8.4 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Gargoyle EU .......... __._ |  2.4 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Gargoyle NA .......... __._ |  8.4 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Ulag EU .............. __._ |  2.8 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Ulag NA .............. __._ |  5.6 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Grak EU .............. __._ |  2.4 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Grak NA .............. __._ |  7.3 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Ogre Ch WD145 ........ __._ | 16.2 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Skav Wa WD134 ........ __._ |  0.7 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Rat Ogre WD134 ....... __._ |  1.4 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._
Troll WD134 .......... __._ |  1.7 | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._ | __._