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Monster slaying cost

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: Monster slaying cost

Postby Daedalus » Tuesday January 29th, 2013 10:11pm

Monster Slaying Cost Matrices

Main System

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
Code: Select all
EU/NA Goblin .......  1.3 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1
EU/NA Skeleton .....  1.6 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1
EU/NA Zombie .......  1.9 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.1 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.1
EU/NA Orc ..........  2.8 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.6 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.3
EU Fimir ...........  3.3 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.9 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3
EU Mummy ...........  4.0 | 1.7 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3
EU Chaos Warrior ...  4.0 | 1.7 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3
EU Gargoyle ........  5.8 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6 | 1.4 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.7 | 0.5
NA Fimir ...........  6.6 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.7 | 1.8 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 0.7 | 0.6
NA Mummy ...........  7.9 | 3.3 | 2.6 | 2.0 | 2.0 | 1.5 | 1.2 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.6
NA Chaos Warrior ... 17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
NA Gargoyle ........ 20.9 | 8.4 | 6.9 | 5.6 | 4.8 | 3.9 | 3.2 | 2.6 | 2.0 | 3.3 | 2.7 | 2.2 | 1.7
Code: Select all
EU Felmarg Guardian   5.8 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6 | 1.4 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.7 | 0.5
EU Ulag ............  7.0 | 2.8 | 2.3 | 1.9 | 1.6 | 1.3 | 1.1 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 1.1 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 0.6
EU Grak ............  5.8 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6 | 1.4 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.7 | 0.5
EU Stone Chaos War.   4.8 | 1.9 | 1.5 | 1.2 | 1.1 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.7 | 0.6 | 0.4 | 0.3
EU Balur ...........  2.8+| 1.1+| 0.8+| 0.6+| 0.6+| 0.5+| 0.3+| 0.2+| 0.2+| 0.4+| 0.3+| 0.2+| 0.2+
EU Witch Lord ...... 11.2+| 4.3+| 3.7+| 3.1+| 2.4+| 2.0+| 1.7+| 1.4+| 1.2+| 1.6+| 1.4+| 1.1+| 0.9+
NA Felmarg Guardian  11.6 | 4.8 | 4.0 | 3.2 | 2.9 | 2.4 | 1.9 | 1.5 | 1.2 | 2.0 | 1.6 | 1.3 | 1.1
NA Ulag ............ 14.0 | 5.6 | 4.6 | 3.7 | 3.2 | 2.6 | 2.1 | 1.7 | 1.4 | 2.2 | 1.8 | 1.4 | 1.2
NA Grak ............ 17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
NA Stone Chaos War.  20.9 | 8.4 | 6.9 | 5.6 | 4.8 | 3.9 | 3.2 | 2.6 | 2.0 | 3.3 | 2.7 | 2.2 | 1.7
NA Balur ...........  8.3+| 3.3+| 2.4+| 1.8+| 1.9+| 1.4+| 1.0+| 0.7+| 0.5+| 1.3+| 0.9+| 0.7+| 0.5+
NA Witch Lord ...... 44.7+|17.2+|14.6+|12.3+| 9.6+| 8.2+| 6.9+| 5.7+| 4.7+| 6.4+| 5.4+| 4.5+| 4.5+


The Halls of Durrag-Dol WD134, The Eyes of Chaos WD145, and Inn of Chaos AU#5

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
Code: Select all
HoD-D Skaven Warrior  1.6 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1
HoD-D White Seer ...   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
HoD-D Rat Ogre .....  6.6 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.7 | 1.8 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 0.7 | 0.6
HoD-D Troll ........  4.0 | 1.7 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3
EoC Ogre ...........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
EoC Ogre Chieftain .   .  |16.2 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
EoC Troll ..........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
EoC Chaos Sorcerer . 17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
IoC Chaos Sorcerer .   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
 w/ Sorcerer table . 17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
IoC Magical Skull ..  1.6 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1


Running the Guantlet, A Growl of Thunder, Revenge of the Weatherman

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
Code: Select all
Cabiri lords RtG ...   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Grashlyg  AGoT .....   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Balash AGoT ........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Balor AGoT .........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Ice Gargoyle RotW ..   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Erongil RotW .......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Death Reaper RotW ..   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .


Kellar's Keep

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
Code: Select all
EU Dwarven Skeleton    .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
EU Gragor ..........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
EU Ograk ...........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
EU Petrokk .........  4.0 | 1.7 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3
EU Grin's Cr. Guard. 17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
NA Dwarven Skeleton   7.9 | 3.3 | 2.6 | 2.0 | 2.0 | 1.5 | 1.2 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.6
NA Gragor .......... 17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
NA Ograk ........... 17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
NA Borrok .......... 17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
NA Grin's Cr. Guard.   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .


Return of the Witch Lord

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
Code: Select all
EU Spirit Riders ..   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
EU Bellthor .......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
EU Skulmar ........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
EU Doomguard ......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
EU Kessandria .....   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
EU Witch Lord .....   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .   
NA Spirit Riders .. 17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
NA Bellthor .......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
NA Skulmar ........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
NA Doomguard ......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
NA Kessandria .....   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
NA Witch Lord .....   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .   


Against the Ogre Horde

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
Code: Select all
3-BP Ogre War./Cha.*   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
4-BP Ogre War./Cha.*   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
Ogre Chieftain .....   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
Ogre Lord ..........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
EU SftOF Gargoyle .. 17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
NA SftOF Gargoyle ..   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
SftOF Stone Orc ....   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
Nexrael ............   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Festral ............ 20.9 | 8.4 | 6.9 | 5.6 | 4.8 | 3.9 | 3.2 | 2.6 | 2.0 | 3.3 | 2.7 | 2.2 | 1.7
EU Festral Guard ...   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
NA Festral Guard ...   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  . 
Xenloth ............   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
*To figure monster slaying cost for 1 or 2 BP ogres, borrow from 5, then 4 BP ogres to create 3 BP ogres.


The Wizards of Morcar

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
Code: Select all
EU Zanrath Cha. War.   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
NA Zanrath Cha. War.   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
5-BP Zanrath .......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Fanrax Skeleton ....   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
5-BP Fanrax ........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
5-BP Boroush .......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Grawshak Bodyguard .   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
5-BP Grawshak ......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
4-BP Zanrath .......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
4-BP Fanrax ........   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
4-BP Boroush .......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
4-BP Grawshak ......   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .


The Mage in the Mirror

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
Code: Select all


The Frozen Horror

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
Code: Select all


The Dark Company

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
Code: Select all

The more rigid code style works well, as does nixxing the zero place-holders. I went one further and did away with all place holders but decimals. I also crowded things a bit to fit in the code window, and made new headers and windows. What do you think?
..
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Grin's Stone Map Played a turn in five (5) Play-by-Post games. Created a Hot Topic. Slain a measly Goblin! Slaughtered an Orc! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy!Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered all eight (8) Game System monsters. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
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Re: Monster slaying cost

Postby thequester » Sunday February 24th, 2013 1:37pm

Daedalus wrote:The more rigid code style works well, as does nixxing the zero place-holders. I went one further and did away with all place holders but decimals. I also crowded things a bit to fit in the code window, and made new headers and windows. What do you think?

Great idea to replace all place holders with just decimals. Crowding things a bit is great too. :D
I've calculated another bunch of numbers - all of the basic monsters for both NA and EU versions. Phew :)
Separate windows for the data looks good in the browser, and you're welcome to add the new numbers to the separate windows. For myself, the easiest is to keep it all in one piece of text, with one header at the top. Then I can easily (with just one command) insert a new column in the middle of things, if we want that at some point. I wish the code windows in this forum were taller. Maybe this is a setting drathe can tweak :roll:

Anyway, here's my updated matrix, now with all basic monsters:

Code: Select all
Hero Attack Dice     1 AD |2 AD  2 AD  2 AD |3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD  3 AD |4 AD  4 AD  4 AD  4 AD
Hero Defend Dice     2 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD  6 DD |2 DD  3 DD  4 DD  5 DD
--------------------------+-----------------+-----------------------------+-----------------------
Goblin EU/NA ........ 1.3 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1
Skeleton EU/NA ...... 1.6 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.1
Zombie EU/NA ........ 1.9 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.1 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.1
Orc EU/NA ........... 2.8 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.6 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.3
Mummy EU ............ 4.0 | 1.7 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3
Mummy NA ............ 7.9 | 3.3 | 2.6 | 2.0 | 2.0 | 1.5 | 1.2 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.6
Fimir EU ............ 3.3 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.9 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3
Fimir NA ............ 6.6 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.7 | 1.8 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 0.7 | 0.6
Chaos Warrior EU .... 4.0 | 1.7 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3
Chaos Warrior NA ....17.5 | 7.3 | 6.0 | 4.8 | 4.3 | 3.5 | 2.9 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 3.0 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6
Gargoyle EU ......... 5.8 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 1.6 | 1.4 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 1.0 | 0.8 | 0.7 | 0.5
Gargoyle NA .........20.9 | 8.4 | 6.9 | 5.6 | 4.8 | 3.9 | 3.2 | 2.6 | 2.0 | 3.3 | 2.7 | 2.2 | 1.7
Felmarg's Guardian EU  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Felmarg's Guardian NA  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Ulag EU .............  .  | 2.8 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Ulag NA .............  .  | 5.6 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Grak EU .............  .  | 2.4 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Grak NA .............  .  | 7.3 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Stone Chaos War EU ..  .  | 1.9 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Stone Chaos War NA ..  .  | 8.4 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Balur EU ............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Balur NA ............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Witch Lord EU .......  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Witch Lord NA .......  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
---------------------  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
-HALLS OF DURRAG-DOL   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Skaven Warrior ......  .  | 0.7 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
White Seer ..........  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Rat Ogre ............  .  | 1.4 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Troll ...............  .  | 1.7 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
---------------------  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
-THE EYES OF CHAOS     .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Ogre ................  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Ogre Chieftain ......  .  |16.2 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Troll ...............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Chaos Sorcerer ......  .  | 7.3 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
---------------------  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
-INN OF CHAOS          .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Chaos Sorcerer ......  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Magical Skull .......  .  |  .7 |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
---------------------  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
-RUNNING THE GAUNTLET  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Cabiri ..............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
---------------------  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
-A GROWL OF THUNDER    .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Wight ...............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Balash ..............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Balor ...............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
---------------------  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
-REV. O.T. WEATHERMAN  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Ice Gargoyle ........  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Erongil .............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Death Reaper ........  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
---------------------  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
-AGAINST T. O. HORDE   .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Ogre Warrior 3 BP ...  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Ogre Champion 4 BP ..  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Ogre Chieftain 4 BP .  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Ogre Lord 5 BP ......  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Gargoyle Quest 1 ....  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Stone Orc Quest 1 ...  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Festral .............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Festral's Guard .....  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Xenloth .............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
---------------------  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
-WIZARDS OF MORCAR     .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Zanrath's Chaos Warr.  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Zanrath..............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Fanrax Skeleton......  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Fanrax...............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Boroush..............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Grawshak's Bodyguard.  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .
Grawshak.............  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .  |  .


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Re: Monster slaying cost

Postby AerynB » Sunday February 24th, 2013 8:57pm

This is really cool. I always thought a Zombie was tougher than an Orc because of the extra defend die, but this shows the Orc is consistently tougher than the Zombie. Great job with this. :mrgreen:


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Re: Monster slaying cost

Postby thequester » Tuesday February 26th, 2013 3:28am

AerynB wrote:This is really cool. I always thought a Zombie was tougher than an Orc because of the extra defend die, but this shows the Orc is consistently tougher than the Zombie. Great job with this. :mrgreen:


Thanks! Yeah, maybe in average the Zombie takes a bit longer to kill, with its extra defend die, but then in average the Orc manages to hit harder, and steal a bit more of your body points in the process. :D I guess for a monster, one extra defend die doesn't give much more of an advantage (only 1/6 chance of a black shield), whereas an extra attack die really packs a punch with the 3/6 chance of a skull.


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Re: Monster slaying cost

Postby Daedalus » Wednesday February 27th, 2013 4:57pm

I edited my tables above with your calculations, and it looks great! As long as you can keep crunching, I can keep editing.

It's interesting how at higher Hero Defend Dice and Attack Dice combinations the differences in the monster slaying costs even out. The top right of the table shows this with a Goblin, Skeleton, and Zombie all having identical slaying costs of . 2 and .1. Anybody designing a Quest for powerful Heroes should take note.

It's also worth noting that slaying costs for weaker monsters are identical with different Hero combat dice combinations, as long as the dice totals are the same. For instance, a Goblin's slaying cost is .3 vs. any combat dice combination that totals 6, .2 vs. a dice combo of 7 or 8, and .1 vs. a combo of 9.

One thing I'm wondering is how does the number of weaker monsters compare to the smaller number of multiple BP monsters. By this I mean does a single Hero with 2 Attack Dice and 3 Defend Dice set against 1 NA Chaos Warrior (msc=6) fair equally well against 6 Orcs (msc+1), or 12 Goblins (msc=.5)? A Hero has just one attack on his turn, so the most Goblins he can kill is one, even if he rolls 2 Skulls and must waste one. Those 2-skull events are applied more efficiently against a NA Chaos Warrior that has a 4 in 6 chance of defending and has 3 Body Points. Does the computer model already reflect this advantage granted to weaker, but more numerous monsters?
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Re: Monster slaying cost

Postby Daedalus » Thursday March 21st, 2013 10:28am

The Game System table has been applied to a thread question about the advantage of using a Battle Axe in another thread. The short of it: using a Battle Axe is better (safer for the Hero) than using a Broadsword and a Shield.

@ thequester-
Have you noticed that I've added in repeated values for some of the as-yet unfinished tables? I hope this saves you some time. Also, Ogres have been mentioned before when talk comes up about Hero equipment, so I think it would be a great idea to work on Against the Ogre Horde next. After that, my preference would be to then determine the values for the EQP and the BQP. More people appear to be playing or plan to play the Quests from these expansions, so this is where your program can answer the more pressing questions.
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Re: Monster slaying cost

Postby torilen » Thursday March 21st, 2013 7:07pm

Okay...I'm starting to get the idea here. I do have a couple of questions.

What formula did you use to come to the results? Or was it just your simulation of the many, many combats
between an average hero and the given monster?

What is the ideal slaying cost one is seeking? 1.0? less than 1?

How do you apply this to a whole party?

Do you have any info for using magical weapons/armor/spells/etc.

...

So far, I like the information, though. Very thorough, very concise. Tables are really easy to use.


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Re: Monster slaying cost

Postby Daedalus » Sunday March 24th, 2013 10:14pm

thequester seems to be pretty busy and doesn't post a lot, so I'll take a crack at your questions, as I understand things.

torilen wrote:Okay...I'm starting to get the idea here. I do have a couple of questions.

What formula did you use to come to the results? Or was it just your simulation of the many, many combats
between an average hero and the given monster?

Monster Slaying Cost is a simulation of 10,000 comabats for each kind of data. For example, a Hero with 2 AD and 2 DD was run 10,000 times against each monster and the results was posted. All other Hero variations were run the same way. Mega-crunch!

torilen wrote:What is the ideal slaying cost one is seeking? 1.0? less than 1?

From the Heroes' perspective, a lower slaying cost is desirable. That cost is the amount of damage the monster is likely to do to a Hero before the monster is slain. A Goblin with a 0.1 slaying cost is only likely to damage a heavily armored and well-armed Hero for 1 BP in 1 of 10 attacks. Another way of putting it is 10 Goblins attacking 3 similarly equipped Heroes would cause 1 BP of damage to one of the Heroes on the Goblins' first turn.

torilen wrote:How do you apply this to a whole party?

As I understand it, you add the slaying costs of a group of monsters together to figure their threat for each Hero, then combine the numbers and find the average. For example, an Elf with 2 AD and 3 DD, a Dwarf with 2 AD and 4 DD, and a Barbarian with 3 AD and 2 DD all rush and attack 3 Goblins and 2 Orcs guarding a table. (Magic and diagonal attacks don't figure in easily using MSC, so no Wizard). To figure the threat [edits in blue]:

  1. Find the combined MSC of all monster types individually for each Hero.
      Elf: 3 Goblins- 0.5, 0.5, 0.5 = 1.5; 2 Orcs- 1.0, 1.0 = 2.0
      Dwarf: 3 Goblins- 0.3, 0.3, 0.3 = 0.9; 2 Orcs- 0.8, 0.8 = 1.6
      Barbarian: 3 Goblins- 0.4, 0.4, 0.4 = 1.2 , 2 Orcs- 0.8, 0.8 = 1.6
  2. Add the MSC for the monster types together for each Hero.
      Elf: Goblins and Orcs- 1.5 + 2.0 = 3 .5
      Dwarf: Goblins and Orcs- 0.9 + 1.6 = 2.5
      Barbarian: Goblins and Orcs- 1.2 + 1.6 = 2.8
  3. Divide by the number of Heroes to determine the MSC for each individual Hero.
      Elf: 3.5 / 3 = 1.2
      Dwarf: 2.5 / 3 = 0.8
      Barbarian: 2.8 / 3 = 0.9
  4. Combine the MSC of all Heroes.
      Elf and Dwarf and Barbarian- 1.2 + 0.8 + 0.9 = 2.9
  5. Divide by the number of Heroes to find the average MSC for a Hero.
      Elf, Dwarf, and Barbarian average- 2.9 / 3 = 1.0
So on average, the Heroes will each suffer 1.0 BP of damage in the room (but not really, see next paragraph). Note the figures from step 3 are a closer approximation of the actual BP of damage each Hero will suffer, but both which monster fights which Hero and randomness affects the numbers.

Exposed facing also affects the actual threat to Heroes quite a bit, but that can't be regularly modeled due to the variables of combat. Two (or more) monsters attacking a Hero on the same turn are more dangerous than two (or more) monsters that may only attack in single file. Until one of the monsters is killed, the extra monster adds it's MSC twice for each turn it out-numbers a Hero and attacks. Likewise, if two Heroes attack a single Chaos Warrrior, it will be killed that much quicker. I guess halving it's avereged MSC would account for this if it alternated attacks between the two Heroes. The program only accounts for 1 monster in combat with one Hero. -[edit] This limits the application of the model to actual combat, but judging things in a simplistic fasion still has some level of usefulness when judging the difficulty of a Quest. A Quest designer should try to account for likely number of attacks the Heroes will encounter in a room or corridor when figuring the difficulty.

torilen wrote:Do you have any info for using magical weapons/armor/spells/etc.

For now, the tables can be used as is for many existing artifacts and armors. Fighting Orcs with Orc's Bane? Then substitued 4 AD for the Hero's usual 2 AD. Spirit Blade would similarly substitute 4 AD when facing Skeletons, Zombies, and Mummies. Borin's Armor would give the same +2 DD bonus as Plate Armor.

Spells aren't covered, but that would make a very useful new table. For now, some spells could be fit in against some Heroes, but this is limited. As spells usually cause automatic damage, figure that 2 AD equals an automatic hit (on average). That means 2 AD equal 1 BP of spell damage, 4 AD equal 2 automatic BPs of spell damage, and 6 AD equal 3 BPs of spell damage. Spells that have a BP cancelled with a 5 or a 6 (NA) or a white shield (EU) for each Mind Point can be figured for Heroes with a starting score of 2, 3, or 4 Mind Points. Simply count a Hero's Mind Points as 2, 3, or 4 Defend Dice and count the Attack Dice of the spell as 2, 4, or 6.
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Re: Monster slaying cost

Postby torilen » Monday March 25th, 2013 8:54am

Okay - the makes more sense now. Thanks for the clarification.

Pretty neat information. It must be nice to be able to program in number crunching like that.
I know very little about computer programming. I used to know quite a bit, before windows
came out. Since windows, though...nothing.

I'll have to copy and print these tables. Quite useful.


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Re: Monster slaying cost

Postby Daedalus » Monday March 25th, 2013 2:32pm

Yeah, I know what you mean. If I had more time, I think I'd like take a crack at it in Java (which I haven't yet learned). It's also been a long time for me since I've written code. A thread was posted about a half year back from a new member about his program that used Java to create a dice roller game. (He appears to have become a member just to spread the word about his program. Only I replied.) The cool part was he explained how he made the code, which is open license, on his site. But even his Java-for-dummies approach got pretty hairy as he grew the features of his program. That's probably gonna keep me from actually investing the time, but the benefits of having a program to judge the difficulty of a Quest more accurately is a holy grail I like to dream about, nevertheless.

On another note, today I discovered how to use thequester's tables to figure the MSC of a single [-edit] monster attacked by a Hero with a diagonal attack:

  1. Use the Attack Dice of the diagonal attack.
  2. Use the average Defend Dice of the other Heroes attacking the monster from adjacent square spaces.
  3. Reference the MSC
Since most diagonal attacks are only possible if one or two other Heroes are attacking from an adjacent square space to the monster, it should be necessary to average the MSCs of all Heroes attacking the monster to arrive at the MSC. I've already detailed this in my post above in the part dealing with MSC for a party of Heroes.

Waitaminute! Maybe I haven't figured diagonal attacks yet. The first problem is the tables don't account for a Wizard's staff combined with the average DD of the other attacking Heroes. Extrapolation can be done, but it might be off. The other problem is more fundamental and rooted in my averaging. [-edit]
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