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What order should the quest packs be played?

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Re: What order should the quest packs be played?

Postby HispaZargon » November 10th, 2021, 2:51 pm

Hi, I already have also calculations for The Crypt of the Perpetual Darkness. According to my dificulty model current prototype, this new quespack seems to have a total difficulty between ROTWL and WoM expansions, asumming both ones according to American rules and monsters stats. These new quests average difficulty resulted slightly higher than ROTWL quests but so far from ATOH and WoM expansions quests average difficulty which is much higher. Spirit Queen's Torment is the only one I have not analyzed yet.


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Re: What order should the quest packs be played?

Postby arntisdale » November 21st, 2021, 5:59 pm

Cael Darkhollow wrote:The publication order itself follows the in-game storyline in the quest books.

1989 HeroQuest Game System UK
1989 Kellar's Keep UK
1989 Return of the Witch Lord UK (later same year as KK)
1990 Against the Ogre Horde UK
1990 Adventure Design Kit UK
1990 rereleased HeroQuest Game System UK (revised)
1991 Wizards of Morcar UK
1991 Hero Quest Advanced Quest Edition (The Dark Company) UK
Australia and Europe release dates were later for the same products

1990 HeroQuest Game System North American version
1991 Kellar's Keep North American version
1991 Return of the Witch Lord North American version (released same time as KK in NA)
1992 Barbarian Quest Pack (The Frozen Horror) NA exclusive
1992 Elf Quest Pack [later rereleased as Quest Pack for the Elf] (The Mage of the Mirror) NA exclusive. released at the same time as Barbarian Quest Pack

So if we take just the official game products and the product release dates the order of quests should/would be:

HeroQuest Game System Quest Book 14 quests
1a. The Maze, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System (UK)
1b. The Trial, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
2. The Rescue of Sir Ragnar, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
3. Lair of the Orc Warlord, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
4. Prince Magnus' Gold, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
5. Melar's Maze, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
6. Legacy of the Orc Warlord, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
7. The Lost Wizard, (called The Stone Hunter in UK version) Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
8. The Fire Mage, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
9. Race Against Time, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
10. Castle of Mystery, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
11. Bastion of Chaos, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
12. Barak Tor- Barrow of the Witch Lord, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
13. Quest for the Spirit Blade, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System
14. Return to Barak Tor, Quest Book HeroQuest Game System

Kellar's Keep Quest Pack 10 quests
15. The Great Gate, Kellar's Keep Quest Book
16. The Warrior Halls, Kellar's Keep Quest Book
17. The Spiral Passage, Kellar's Keep Quest Book
18. The Dwarven Forge, Kellar's Keep Quest Book
19. Hall of the Dwarven Kings, Kellar's Keep Quest Book
20. The Great Citadel, Kellars's Keep Quest Book
21. The Eastern Passage, kellar's Keep Quest Book
22. Belorn's Mine, Kellar's Keep Quest Book
23. The East Gate, Kellar's Keep Quest Book
24. Grin's Crag, Kellar's Keep Quest Book

Return of the Witch Lord Quest Pack 10 quests
25. The Gate of Doom, Return of the Witch Lord Quest Book
26. The Cold Halls, Return of the Witch Lord Quest Book
27. The Silent Passages, Return of the Witch Lord Quest Book
28. The Halls of Vision, Return of the Witch Lord Quest Book
29. The Gate of Bellthor, Return of the Witch Lord Quest Book
30. Halls of the Dead, Return of the Witch Lord Quest Book
31. The Forgotten Legion, Return of the Witch Lord Quest Book
32. The Forbidden Caverns, Return of the Witch Lord Quest Book
33. The Last Gate, Return of the Witch lord Quest Book
34. The Court of the Witch Lord, Return of the Witch Lord Quest book

Adventure design Kit 1 quest, while not in a quest book this quest is on an official product
35. (42.) Plague of Zombies, back of the box, Adventure design Kit (UK) alternatively could be played after AtOH both released in 1990

Against the Ogre Horde 7 quests
36. (35.) Search for Ogre Fortress, Against the Ogre Horde Quest Book
37. (36.) The Outer Caves, Against the Ogre Horde Quest Book
38. (37.) Lair of the Ogre Horde, Against the Ogre Horde Quest Book
39. (38.) The Carrion Halls, Against the Ogre Horde Quest Book
40. (39.) The Pit of Chaos, Against the Ogre Horde Quest Book
41. (40.) Fortress of the Ogre Lord, Against the Ogre Horde Quest Book
42. (41.) Flight to the Surface, Against the Ogre Horde Quest Book

Wizards of Morcar 5 quests
43. The Tower of the High Mage, Wizards of Morcar Quest Book
44. Crypt of the Necromancer, Wizards of Morcar Quest Book
45. Eyrie of the Storm Master, Wizards of Morcar Quest Book
46. Lair of the Orc Shaman, Wizards of Morcar Quest Book
47. The final Conflict, Wizards of Morcar Quest Book

The in-game 5 quest book story line ended at Wizard's of Morcar. While Dark Company is next in publication (1991), many put this quest last due to it's large size and perceived difficulty; it makes a good finale.
HeroQuest Advanced Quest Edition 1 four-part mega-Quest
48. (68.) Dark Company, fold out map, HeroQuest Advanced Quest Edition (4 game boards adventure)

The Barbarian Quest Pack and Elf Quest Pack were released at the same time (1992) and do not tie directly into the main story line so either could be played first. Some choose to run Barbarian Quest right after Wizards of Morcar because of the Mercenaries available for hire in both, others run it after the Elf Quest due to it's perceived greater difficulty.
Barbarian Quest Pack 10 quests
48 or 49. (58.) Xanon Pass Solo Quest, Barbarian Quest Book The Frozen Horror
49 or 50. (59.) Trial by Ice Solo Quest, Barbarian Quest Book The Frozen Horror
50 or 51. (60.) The Rescue Solo Quest, Barbarian Quest Book The Frozen Horror
51 or 52. (61.) The Glacial Gate, Barbarian Quest Book The Frozen Horror
52 or 53. (62.) The Deadly Depths, Barbarian Quest Book The Frozen Horror
53 or 54. (63.) The Frozen Path, Barbarian Quest Book The Frozen Horror
54 or 55. (64.) The Halls of Kelvinos, Barbarian Quest Book The Frozen Horror
55 or 56. (65.) The Search for the Scepter, Barbarian Quest Book The Frozen Horror
56 or 57. (66.) The Heart of Ice Double Quest (part A), Barbarian Quest Book The Frozen Horror
57 or 58. (67.) The Heart of Ice Double Quest (Part B), Barbarian Quest Book The Frozen Horror

Elf Quest Pack 10 quests
59. (48 or 49.) The Avenger Returns Solo Quest, Elf Quest Book The Mage of the Mirror
60. (49 or 50.) On Sacred Ground Solo Quest, Elf Quest Book The Mage of the Mirror
61. (50 or 51.) Terrellia's Maze Solo Quest, Elf Quest Book The Mage of the Mirror
62. (51 or 52.) The Elven Prospector, Elf Quest Book The Mage of the Mirror
63. (52 or 53.) The Alchemist's Laboratory, Elf Quest Book The Mage of the Mirror
64. (53 or 54.) Tormuk's Guests, Elf Quest Book The Mage of the Mirror
65. (54 or 55.) Gliness Fen, Elf Quest Book The Mage of the Mirror
66. (55 or 56.) The Gathering Storm, Elf Quest Book The Mage of the Mirror
67. (56 or 57.) Hidden Realms Double Quest (part A), Elf Quest The Mage of the Mirror
68. (57 or 58.) Hidden realms Double Quest (part B), Elf Quest The Mage of the Mirror

Personally I put Frozen Horror after Wizards of Morcar, then Mage of the Mirror, then Dark Company.

All of the 69 quests in the original official HeroQuest game products (including both the Maze and the Trial) are above but what about the other published quests not found in game products, but in other sources such as White Dwarf Magazine, the Corgi HeroQuest novels, the Marvel Winter Special Hazards Pack, Adventure Unlimited Magazine or Dragão Brasil Magazine?
Should we include them and if so where do they best fit?
I feel like the Winter Special, the HeroQuest novels and the White Dwarf article quests are official HeroQuest Products so should be included. The other magazines have no official ties to Hasbro, Milton Bradley or Games Workshop so I feel are more akin to fan-made material rather than official quests despite being published in magazines.

(70?) Revenge of the Weather-Man, in HeroQuest: A Marvel Winter Special (1991)
strictly in publication order it could go after or before WoM or Dark Company, but where would it best fit?
It is very similar in theme to Wizards of Morcar ( basically an evil wizard hunt) so easily could be included before, in the middle somewhere, or placed after WoM.

(71?) The Halls of Durrag-Dol, in White Dwarf Magazine issue 134 (1991)
An argument can be made for this to be a final quest because it mentions the fall of Morcar, alternatively the other quests could be Morcar's return so it could be placed anywhere. Gives the option to play a Dwarf Slayer character.

(72,73?) The Eyes of Chaos (Double Quest) in White Dwarf Magazine issue 145 (1992)
Makes the most sense to be played after Against the Ogre Horde as it is mentioned.

(74?) Running the Gauntlet, Wizard Solo Quest, in HeroQuest: The Screaming Spectre (1992)
A good fit for this wizard solo might be right before Wizards of Morcar to emulate the solo quests early in the Barbarian and Elf Quest packs, but it does mention crossing the Sea of Claws so perhaps it fits best before or after the Barbarian Quest pack?

(75?) A Growl of Thunder, Barbarian Solo Quest, HeroQuest: The Tyrant's Tomb (1993)
Seems like this homecoming to the Barbarian's homeland (basically a revenge Quest) isn't nearly as momentous as the Barbarian Quest pack, where it seemed like he hadn't been home in a long time and his return was celebrated. Makes sense to place this sometime after the Barbarian quest pack especially due to the events mentioned in the quest intro. Also the publication date of 1993 (after the Barbarian tFH) makes this the last published quest of the original HeroQuest game. Seems strange to put this right after the Barbarian Quest Pack though (two home-farings back to back?), so would make more sense with some time between, say after Mage of the Mirror or Dark Company if those are placed after the Frozen Horror. Alternatively this could be an early homecoming in the Barbarian's career but after some adventuring in other lands, so right after the Quest Book for the game system might work.


Where do you think the 3 new quest packs might slide into this list?
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Re: What order should the quest packs be played?

Postby Kurgan » November 21st, 2021, 6:37 pm

If I had to guess I would imagine the three new quest packs are probably meant to take place towards the end of the careers of the four classic Heroes. As for difficulty it sounds like they fit somewhere after KK/ROTWL but before EQP/BQP.


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Re: What order should the quest packs be played?

Postby HispaZargon » November 21st, 2021, 6:55 pm

Yeah, for the moment I think so.

As I previously mentioned, I have my own homebrew model to calculate the difficulty level of each quest.

I have identified the current version of this model as HZ-model v.1.0.0. I consider this model just a simplified prototype since it only covers the difficulty linked to how many monsters and traps are shown in the quest map and their types. This model does not consider any special events, nor heroes rewards, nor equipment/gold found, nor potential visits to shops, etc. I will add all those details step by step in future revisions, but I think the current prototype is enough mature to provide an interesting big picture of ll the questpacks.

For more details about the my Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM), regular improvements and updates about it, I strongly recommend visiting this thread. There you could also find all the analyses and results I am talking about.

Then, according to HZ-model v.1.0.0, this is a summary of the results I have obtained up to now, if it could help you on deciding your questpacks' playing order (more info here):


- Total calculated quest difficulty increases as can be seen in the following figure for all the classic questpacks (except The Dark Company) plus the Mythic Tier questpacks, ordered in the order discussed in previous posts:

3_HZ-model_v0100_All_Questpacks_Total_Difficulty_in_Chronological_Order.jpg

- Total calculated quest difficulty increases as can be seen in the following figure for all the classic questpacks (except The Dark Company) plus the Mythic Tier questpacks, ordered according to their average quest difficulty:

5_HZ-model_v0100_All_Questpacks_Total_Difficulty_in_Difficulty_Order.jpg

According to these results, if we just follow a difficulty criterion (ignoring any chronological story), I think there is not too much difference in playing KK and ROTWL before or after POT and SQT, but I think TCOPD may be the last one to be played after those four remake expansions. Finally, about the rest of classic questpacks (ATOH, WOM, EQP & BQP) the model clearly suggests that they should be played much later, probably by really well equiped and experienced heroes.


EDITED: The original message included more detailed info about HZ-DCM model and more results, which started a long off-topic thread of posts, so a new dedicated thread was created here and all the related posts about the model and its results where moved there for clarity purposes. Present post content has been also adapted accordingly.
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Re: What order should the quest packs be played?

Postby Anderas » December 2nd, 2021, 2:44 am

HispaZargon, this is very interesting!

I would be interested in the details how you did this comparison.
I also think, your entire analysis is worth a separate thread, as it goes into great detail.

Count Mohawk and I once spent half a hobby lifetime developing a statistical model that would predict the difficulty of a quest, taking into account monsters, traps and a small choice of zargon's spells. The most difficult part was presenting the results in a way that would not turn away an unsuspecting reader, so we settled for either loss of BP for a certain Hero Group; or Hero Group recommendation for a quest. So I present my result as "this quest is a 4-dice-quest" meaning, it is suitable for a hero group using 4-dice-equipment.

I never once thought about adding up the entire quest book and make a difficulty estimation for all of it at once. Nice idea!


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Re: What order should the quest packs be played?

Postby HispaZargon » December 6th, 2021, 4:49 pm

Anderas wrote:HispaZargon, this is very interesting!

I would be interested in the details how you did this comparison.
I also think, your entire analysis is worth a separate thread, as it goes into great detail.

Thank you! I plan to organize and describe all the method and share it once written in a different thread.

Anderas wrote:Count Mohawk and I once spent half a hobby lifetime developing a statistical model that would predict the difficulty of a quest, taking into account monsters, traps and a small choice of zargon's spells. The most difficult part was presenting the results in a way that would not turn away an unsuspecting reader, so we settled for either loss of BP for a certain Hero Group; or Hero Group recommendation for a quest. So I present my result as "this quest is a 4-dice-quest" meaning, it is suitable for a hero group using 4-dice-equipment.

I never once thought about adding up the entire quest book and make a difficulty estimation for all of it at once. Nice idea!

Yeah, the idea I have is extending this method by using it in order to evaluate how difficult is a quest (or a quespack) and think about how many heroes could play it and also add somekind of balanced experience system for them for allowing to level up their skills through a campaign. I already have some drafts about this but not still enough mature. Once finished I will share too :-)


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Re: What order should the quest packs be played?

Postby therealshrek » December 6th, 2021, 6:58 pm

It has been a long day, these tables hurt my brain..... o.0
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Re: What order should the quest packs be played?

Postby banjo_oz » December 10th, 2021, 9:10 am

As a kid (grew up with the EU version) I never had Wizards of Morcar (or the Elf/Barbarian quests obviously) but I always wondered which order the first two expansions went in. I think I played Return of the Witch Lord first more as it was the first expansion I got, but as an adult I felt Kellar's Keep was a better "middle" to the trilogy with ROTWL as the finale. Glad to see that's how most others now play them too!
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Re: What order should the quest packs be played?

Postby DocStalk » December 11th, 2021, 4:00 pm

I’m just sitting here trying to figure out what order to play the new quest packs in, but apparently I need to review a dozen charts and several dozen paragraphs. Is there a TLDR version of the new game order!!!
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Re: What order should the quest packs be played?

Postby HispaZargon » December 11th, 2021, 4:19 pm

DocStalk wrote:I’m just sitting here trying to figure out what order to play the new quest packs in, but apparently I need to review a dozen charts and several dozen paragraphs. Is there a TLDR version of the new game order!!!

Those charts are only custom fanmade tools to check from some kind of quantitative method the difficulty of completing each questpack. If you want to know the playing order of them, this is my guess:

According to the official story telling, the playing order should be this one:

1.- Game System
2.- Kellar's Keep
3.- Return of the Witch Lord
4.- Against the Ogre Horde
5.- Wizards of Morcar/Zargon


Mage of the Mirror, The Frozen Horror, The Dark Company, Profecy of Telor, Spirit Queens Torment and The Crypt of Perpetual Darkness I think may be played whenever you want after playing the Game System questpack. Even more correctly from story line coherency point of view, those questpacks may not be played before Return of the Witch Lord questpack.

In the other hand, according to their average difficulty (see this chart), in difficulty increasing order they should be played as:

1.- Game System
2.- Profecy of Telor
3.- Spirit Queens Torment
4.- Kellar's Keep
5.- Return of the Witch Lord
6.- The Crypt of Perpetual Darkness
7.- Against the Ogre Horde
(fanmade conversion to American rules and monsters stats)
8.- Wizards of Morcar/Zargon (fanmade conversion to American rules and monsters stats)
9.- The Dark Company* (fanmade conversion to American rules and monsters stats)
10.- Mage of the MIrror
11.- The Frozen Horror


* Dark Company multi-map questpack difficulty is so complex to be calculated but I made some estimations and I think it is easier to play than Mage of the Mirror and The Froze Horror questpacks.
Last edited by HispaZargon on December 14th, 2021, 8:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.


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