The Kathryn L. Connors Interview Mar/2023

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Thanks but I got that Kathy was referring to the UK / European / EA version, I was just trying to get my head around the timings of FE, SE and NA (FE was obviously first, but I can't seem to get a definitive answer to whether SE preceded NA or whether they were developed in parallel, but to an extent independently)

The reason why I found the use of the term "the Games Workshop version" interesting is that it goes back to debate as to the extent of GW's (Jervis Johnson) involvement in the original game. I don't think anyone is challenging that the original concept was Steve Baker's but whether GW staff were play testers who perhaps pointed out a few areas for improvement, as good play testers should, or whether they effectively rewrote the entire game mechanics, so should be considered as co-designers. White Dwarf magazine did list Jervis Johnson as a co-designer granted, as others have correctly pointed out White Dwarf is GW official magazine so bias is to be expected, however I don't think they would have put that claim in print if they weren't confident they had the grounds to back it up if it was ever challenged, and the fact that it was never challenged to my knowledge suggests that MB agreed, or at least didn't have sufficient grounds to disagree.

So to discover that those involved in the NA edition referred to the UK / European / EA edition (s) as "the Games Workshop version", for me is quite indicative!

[Kurgan]

It's very confusing. If someone said "the GamesWorkShop Version" to me I'd immediately think of "Advanced HeroQuest" because that was all them (no MB acknowledgement on the box). But GWS was credited on all editions of HeroQuest released and I didn't think Kathy was around for the pre-alpha (or whatever the term might be) version that Baker supposedly designed from the ground up (the 3 fold board, "D&D lite" etc).

Then again, I wouldn't expect a designer to remember with perfect clarity the contextual details of a project they worked on 30 years ago, still a few follow up questions like that would be cool to ask if she's willing.

It may be that people who are currently working on HeroQuest have more strictures on what they can say than past designers, so that's a mark in her favor at this stage.

The vague wishful rumors that GWS and Hasbro might collaborate at some point in the future again means we may not be able to get such candid answers from current GWS members... just another random thought there.

Looking at the context, using "the gamesworkshop version" as a shorthand for the original (1989) editions of the game might make a certain amount of sense. There were a little more artwork and tidbits of Warhammer lore in those versions than in the NA editions released later (1990 NA game system, 1991 KK/ROTWL, etc). For example ROTWL had the "world map" straight out of 3rd edition WHFB, and the "minions of morcar" artwork was an edited version of a picture from that which was featured in the '89 core set's book... the talk about Morcar being one day destroyed by the dark powers of chaos that he had called upon, and the infamous bit about Sir Ragnar being executed for treasure in ROTWL's epilogue though that last part really has nothing to do with WH lore just another thing that was excised when it was ported across the pond). Various bits of filler artwork in the booklets comes from Warhammer fantasy sources (Gary Chalke or one of their other illustrators I imagine). But the later versions still had GWS art and lore, just a little bit less of it (they all for example had the "White Dwarf" on his character card, references to the Empire, etc even if they don't mention Bretonnia or the "Old World" they do mention the Northern Chaos Wastes, slaves to darkness, Fimir, etc).

Many have debated whether "Morcar" is meant to be a take off on "Morkar" (who was a chaos warrior in the ancient past of Warhammer Fantasy lore, rather than a contemporary, albeit long lived, evil wizard) rather than the historical figure (much like Zargon could have been a riff on the name of that D&D mutant monster as opposed to the historical Akkadian ruler associated with a series of once popular chess simulations).

The Japanese edition (1991 that Takara worked on, in cooperation with MB) has even less explicit references, having a whole new setting (Warhammer geographers can tell me how closely "Neef Island" matches up with anything from WHF) and renames the Fimirs and Chaos Warriors (while retaining the same models) and incorporates a chaos god in there (granted, an unnamed one and I guess more like a daemonic champion if we are really sticking to WH lore of which I'm not anything of an expert).

[wallydubbs]

Thanks but I got that Kathy was referring to the UK / European / EA version, I was just trying to get my head around the timings of FE, SE and NA (FE was obviously first, but I can't seem to get a definitive answer to whether SE preceded NA or whether they were developed in parallel, but to an extent independently)

The reason why I found the use of the term "the Games Workshop version" interesting is that it goes back to debate as to the extent of GW's (Jervis Johnson) involvement in the original game. I don't think anyone is challenging that the original concept was Steve Baker's but whether GW staff were play testers who perhaps pointed out a few areas for improvement, as good play testers should, or whether they effectively rewrote the entire game mechanics, so should be considered as co-designers. White Dwarf magazine did list Jervis Johnson as a co-designer granted, as others have correctly pointed out White Dwarf is GW official magazine so bias is to be expected, however I don't think they would have put that claim in print if they weren't confident they had the grounds to back it up if it was ever challenged, and the fact that it was never challenged to my knowledge suggests that MB agreed, or at least didn't have sufficient grounds to disagree.

So to discover that those involved in the NA edition referred to the UK / European / EA edition (s) as "the Games Workshop version", for me is quite indicative!

I believe the FE came out first in Europe, followed by the SE and finally released in North American. Since Kathy is from North America and Mage of the Mirror was ONLY released in North American, it stands to reason she would've been playing the North American version.

In the interview she said Milton Bradley never asked her to playtest it or make any improvements. This goes along with my theory that Mage of the Mirror was never playtested and rushed onto the shelves to make room for the collusion of Parker Brothers. This is right around the time Hasbro bought out Tonka (who owned Parker Brothers) and this acquired all the Disney contracts. Not only that they moved Parker Brothers into the same building. They didn't have the time, space or resources to do the finishing touches on Frozen Horror and Mage of the Mirror.

It also seems like Kathy did a lot of this work from afar, as she had a child to care for and may not have actually been in the building as her husband facilitated the deal. It seems like she put the game together, Milton Bradley merely provided the resources (cards, miniatures, tiles, etc.). All the little errors and missing card texts makes sense when you reason it was one person doing the majority of the work and she wasn't even asked to playtest it either.

[Kurgan]

They were aware of assets from the European versions via the info that was shared with the team early on (granted, mostly for the Wizard pack), such as the Ogre designs ported from Against the Ogre Horde (and the mercenaries from Wizards of Morcar). I am inclined to agree with you about the lack of playtesting and rush. Too bad, it would have been great to see more but then again if the franchise was getting pulled, we're maybe lucky we got anything at all that year...

[lucapaschi]

The Parker Brothers hypothesis is interesting, indeed. It might not be directly related to the matter, but it could make sense from an "optimizing costs" point of view, where Hasbro itself cut off some franchises that were not that lucrative - the editor told me that was probably the reason for termination, margin on HQ was pretty low even if the game was successful. I think that's something that happens after some purchases/mergers.

The designers had parts of the ATOH questbook as a source material, and where applicable, they were given color copies of the WOM cards, so they were completed and shared by GW/MB EU by the time they started the american expansions.

Playtesting was done in a limited way by Kathy and Bill while Kathy wrote the quest, but it was not required for the designers to do that in the first place. Even if it sound strange to us, their role required them to deliver a somewhat playable expansion. They were not required to give feedback on subsequent changes - it's like you sell someone some goods, and not know what he'll do with those later. It is usual for the material to be changed, and in our case the packs were later revised by a team of no less than 4 editors. Some of the problems came from there: sometimes the material was almost completely rewritten, sometimes a part of a pack was ported to the others (like, a rule was written well in one pack and not so much in the others), sometimes the maps were changed slightly or made completely new from scratch. Playtesting after the initial design phase would have been pretty useless, then. We can say that all four packs are somewhat lacking in their original form, or have blatant mistakes that had to be fixed (like, the Dwarf pack has two large, two-sided tiles that would have left no room for any other tile in the pack).
The strange thing it that they were not playtested for real even after the final versions were created, so in the end there was a lack of playtesting that was not a fault of the designers, but more of the editors - or of the lack of time to go into production.
Funny thing is that before they started with the design of the 4 packs, it is hinted in the notes that there might have been even more expansions coming, while not even a year later they had to rush the expansions knowing full well the Wizard and Dwarf would not see the light of the day.
They did have about 6 months to work on the packs simultaneously, but probably left behind the W/D pack at some point during these months to focus on what they felt were closer to completion.

EDIT: I see the purchase of Tonka was announced on February 1st, 1991. They still had to contact the designers by then, so it might be less of a factor.

[Kurgan]

Very interesting insights!

[wallydubbs]

The Parker Brothers hypothesis is interesting, indeed. It might not be directly related to the matter, but it could make sense from an "optimizing costs" point of view, where Hasbro itself cut off some franchises that were not that lucrative - the editor told me that was probably the reason for termination, margin on HQ was pretty low even if the game was successful. I think that's something that happens after some purchases/mergers.

The designers had parts of the ATOH questbook as a source material, and where applicable, they were given color copies of the WOM cards, so they were completed and shared by GW/MB EU by the time they started the american expansions.

Playtesting was done in a limited way by Kathy and Bill while Kathy wrote the quest, but it was not required for the designers to do that in the first place. Even if it sound strange to us, their role required them to deliver a somewhat playable expansion. They were not required to give feedback on subsequent changes - it's like you sell someone some goods, and not know what he'll do with those later. It is usual for the material to be changed, and in our case the packs were later revised by a team of no less than 4 editors. Some of the problems came from there: sometimes the material was almost completely rewritten, sometimes a part of a pack was ported to the others (like, a rule was written well in one pack and not so much in the others), sometimes the maps were changed slightly or made completely new from scratch. Playtesting after the initial design phase would have been pretty useless, then. We can say that all four packs are somewhat lacking in their original form, or have blatant mistakes that had to be fixed (like, the Dwarf pack has two large, two-sided tiles that would have left no room for any other tile in the pack).
The strange thing it that they were not playtested for real even after the final versions were created, so in the end there was a lack of playtesting that was not a fault of the designers, but more of the editors - or of the lack of time to go into production.
Funny thing is that before they started with the design of the 4 packs, it is hinted in the notes that there might have been even more expansions coming, while not even a year later they had to rush the expansions knowing full well the Wizard and Dwarf would not see the light of the day.
They did have about 6 months to work on the packs simultaneously, but probably left behind the W/D pack at some point during these months to focus on what they felt were closer to completion.

EDIT: I see the purchase of Tonka was announced on February 1st, 1991. They still had to contact the designers by then, so it might be less of a factor.

It's just an educated guess on my part, but when I was looking into the Tonka buyout and Hasbro acquisition of Parker Brothers, all the lucrative contracts were carried over with the buy out. Looking into the games Parker Brothers released beginning in the early 90's it seems like they held all the major contracts with Disney. So many Disney boardgames were being published based off of movies. I vaguely remember many of these games growing up: Aladdin, Bambie, etc. I think honoring the Disney deals would've been more important from a business standpoint. HeroQuest probably didn't bring in half as much revenue as Disney would have. Their games were cheaper and flimsy and much simpler.

Furthermore, when I looked into it I found that prior to 1992 Parker Brothers' main HQ of operations was in Beverly, Massachusetts; Milton Bradley in East Longmeadow, Massachusetts. Parker Brothers' boardgame productions were consolidated with Milton Bradley under the same building as a Games Campus, later renamed Hasbro Games. The fact that they were moving into the same building suggests that room needed to be made to accommodate Parker Brothers. I've personally witnessed the chaos of businesses changing location, so it seems reasonable to me if in making room for Parker Brothers' boardgames Milton Bradley rushed the Elf and Barbarian quest packs onto shelves and out of their building to cash in on sales so they can start on the Disney Contracts.
Again, this is just an educated guess on my part.

[HispaZargon]

Today I am so glad to inform you about BGG website has finally approved after long time my request, and they have corrected the Mage of the Mirror expansion entry, now saying that its designer was Kathryn L. Connors.

The Frozen Horror entry has been also corrected, now saying that its designer was Scott D. Haring.

BGG updated entries:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/368 ... or/credits

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpa ... or/credits

Today is a great day for board games history, and specially for the HeroQuest legacy. Congrats to everybody.

[HispaZargon]

Hi, our loyal member elvyler has gratly given me permission to copy below from his website Elvyler's Game Room the full interview we performed to Kathryn L. Connors, in order to have an alternative storage place for better preservation.

Here it is for eternity (only the interview itself):

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INTERVIEW WITH KATHRYN L. CONNORS, published the 23rd of March of 2023 at elvyler's website 'Elvyler's Game Room', and designed with the collaboration of Ye Olde Inn members 'lucapaschi', 'HispaZargon', 'lestodante' and 'Kurgan':

Introducing the Elf Quest Pack Designer

With great honour, we would like to introduce the Elf Quest Pack designer, Kathryn L. Connors. Kathy was overjoyed and enthusiastic to share her story on designing the Elf Quest Pack. You’ll find that Kathy is an amazing person, and just as passionate about HeroQuest as any of us could be.

Kathy is an avid gamer and enjoys attending conventions with her husband William, who is also a well known game designer and artist.

Her story really is a story of love for the game, and we are very excited to share it with everyone.


The Best Thing About HeroQuest – Designing an Expansion

Elvyler, on behalf of all authors involved (E): When did you start designing games and how did you get into game design?

Kathryn L. Connors (KLC): I was designing games by the time I was 10 and forcing anyone I knew to play them with me. If I loved a game and played it a lot, sooner or later I would be creating expansions or changes to it. I have always loved gaming! I had my own copy of D&D by 1980. My husband William and I were a blind date and the only reason I kept dating him was because we were just about tied at Risk and his GM at the time was enthralling.

E: Other than working on the Elf Quest Pack, did you have any other experience or exposure to HeroQuest before being asked to design the Elf Quest Pack?

KLC: As I said previously, I had EXTENSIVE play time with HQ, starting with the Games Workshop version!

E: How, and when were you contacted to work on the Elf Quest Pack? Why do you think you were selected for the project? Did you also work on other games at the time?

KLC: I was lucky and honored to get chosen to create the Elf pack. Sure I had extensive gaming experience, years of playing numerous games and fantastic creative contacts and experiences with people in the field, but, I was simply in the right place at the right time. Just so you understand how I ended up creating an HeroQuest expansion, my husband William W. Connors worked at TSR when HeroQuest came out and many at TSR played it. I was raising a one and a two year old at the time and for me it was fantastic because I could design an adventure, get the kids fed and in bed, and still have enough energy left over to run Bill through it when he got home. Simple mechanics meant my energy could be spent on creativity of plot, puzzles, etc. Jim Ward knew Bill played a lot of HeroQuest at home (we had two American sets as well as the Games Workshop version, Kellar’s Keep and Witch Lord expansions), so he asked Bill if he wanted to write the Elf Pack, but Bill didn’t want to risk it because he had an exclusivity contract with TSR and never wanted to put his job in jeopardy. Bill suggested I could write it as I was the one running it all the time at home. As it was told to me, Jim gave Bill a wink and a nod and said something like: “Sure, K-A-T-H-Y can design it”. Bill seriously replied: “Yeah Jim, she can.” And so, I had the honor of designing one of the two expansions that would be released!

E: What was your relationship with Mike Gray and the rest of the quest pack designers? (There’s a reference in the designer letter from Mike G. that you might have known Tom Wham, who was working on the Dwarf Pack at the same time)

KLC: I knew and talked to Mike Gray several times during development. He was very kind and professional. I knew and know Tom Wham. Tom and I have gamed together at conventions in the area over the years, but we never discussed HeroQuest. I adore Tom Wham, his unique creative genius charms me. He always has a current game he is working on to which he introduces me and I LOVE playing them with him. What more could a girl ask for?

E: We know designers were required to submit the content for the quest book (backstory and quests), the tile sheet, the 30 card deck (card and illustrations) and a description of the monsters. What kind of material were you given to work on the Pack? (We know you had some Xerox copies of the questbooks for the previous expansions, you probably had a plastic runner with half the monsters for the new packs and we can suppose you were given a Game System box?)

KLC: They never gave me anything as I had all the stuff already. I remember being told that I didn’t have to draw the art but that I had to include detailed descriptions and get them in quickly. I am a semi-professional artist and found it easier to sketch out all my ideas for the figures and the die cut sheet and add notes rather than write out long descriptions. Ironically, THIS is my favorite memory of this endeavor! I sent out my sketches and notes and the artists at MB created beautiful, professional game pieces of what I had imagined and sketched. It was magic! I remember one artist (Donald L. Kueker) saying “Great working with you, I know exactly what you want!” and he did. Getting the wolves in a leaping position was difficult at the time but the sculptor nailed it in the end. Maps and the first draft went in next, and I was done. I never rewrote anything. I never playtested the final pack, except comparing it to things I had created for Bill when we played at home.

E: Were there ideas you had for the quest pack that didn’t get used? (We have seen concept art for a centaur in Kueker’s drawings – was it part of your pack?)

KLC: I don’t remember a Centaur. I was ready to have my story and writing changed in editing because I had watched Bill deal with having his creative ideas changed as they moved through development. One thing I did create that didn’t get into the quest book, was a second shop for the quest book. I had two poetic advertisements included. One shop sold the potions and another was a cart vendor who sold the same potions but, maybe they were cheaper and might not work. I thought that was funny!

E: What inspired you to create the story? How long did it take for you to complete the first draft? What challenges did you encounter designing the Pack?

KLC: I loved creating the Elf Pack! To be frank, it was a thrill to use my brain after two years of sleepless nights, baby toys, sesame street and kids books. When Bill got home at night, I handed him two kids and locked myself in his office to write. It was invigorating! I included a female villain because these sets were bringing in female heroes (which I applauded). That was way ahead of the times! It all came together in under two weeks or so.

E: After you submitted the first draft, what was your ongoing role in the design process? Were you required to step down after the first draft, or were you able to continue giving direction for further work on the Quest Pack (Coordinating with artists and editors, etc)? Did you know what was happening behind the scenes after your draft submission?

KLC: I never submitted any more written content but, as I said, I talked to the artists a bit. They were fun and treated me as an equal which meant a lot. They stuck to my visions and made them reality.

E: How was the overall experience during the design process? Did you have contact with Mike Gray and other Milton Bradley employees regarding progress on the project? How much freedom were you given in coming up with your own ideas for the Quest Pack?

KLC: My overall experience with MB was more than positive. Honestly, I remember being allowed to design what I wanted. I contacted MB now and then, but I do not remember them being overly controlling. From childhood I dreamed of “really” making a game and I got that opportunity and was presented with an expansion that came directly from my mind. And a beautiful one it is! When I go to conventions, I run a version of the 9 and 10 levels that fits the time in my gaming slot. I am often rewarded with the knowledge that there were many children who grew up loving my story and my creation. WOW! I still make changes and additions to games and Bill often creates expansions for games we have played to death (Battle for Hogwarts!). But the thrill of a professional game I created, will never subside.

E: We know it was not common at the time to include credits for the designers in some games, and this was definitely the case as it took 30 years to find out more about the original designers of these quest packs! Was there any other extra compensation for the designers, like a free “designer copy” of the game?

KLC: I got a free copy of the Elf Pack and made more money per word than my husband ever had. I’ve never let him live that down!

E: Looking over draft notes, we see rules and ideas that have not been implemented. For one, the original Mage of the Mirror storyline may have had a much darker tone (for one, the Queen’s attendants were found dead by the hero). What do you think were the reasons these ideas were excluded from the final product? Can you speak on any other lost threads to the story of HeroQuest?

KLC: I assume it was age appropriateness.

E: The original Elf Quest Pack has a legacy of being the most sought after expansion, it’s the most valuable HeroQuest expansion sold aftermarket (fetching prices of $700-$1000 for a brand new copy). Partly this is due to the brief time it was available for sale. What are your feelings about this? Did you remember seeing it on the shelves back then?

KLC: Oh yes! I bought a second copy at the time to keep unpunched. I had no idea it was going to disappear so fast or become so sought after. My eldest son let me know about its rarity after he reached his teens and was trying to get a copy for his HQ set.

E: HeroQuest was remade by Avalon Hill/Hasbro in 2021. Have you seen the remake, and what are your thoughts on it? This January a remake for Mage of the Mirror was released. There were some small changes made, but it is mostly faithful to the original 1992 version. What are your thoughts on this?

KLC: I love the remake of HQ and bought it for my second son’s family this Christmas. His son is 6 and because this is a co-op game he can play with the family. What a joy! A third generation is enjoying this game… I still love the old cardboard furniture but I used some of the new plastic furniture at a few Cons last year and all participants loved them. The new Elf pack is done well and the elven-esque furniture in the new elf pack is different enough to be worth the cost of the expansion. The heart of my story and the puzzles remain, so I’m good! Sinestra in the new version is different and quite “pretty” in the instruction book… I loved that the artist did not try to make her lovely in the old version. They took my vision and brought it to life.

E: HeroQuest still has a very active following and fan community. Even before the game was revived by Avalon Hill/Hasbro, it was kept alive by dedicated fans from all over the world. For most of them, HeroQuest is part of cherished childhood memories and was the gateway into more complex role playing games. We would like to personally thank you for your contribution to the game! What are your thoughts on the legacy of HeroQuest and the fan community? Did you expect fans to get in touch with you after 30 years?

KLC: I have been overwhelmed at conventions by the response when I list that I am running my Elf Pack! So many young adults have echoed your comments about sweet childhood memories… I am more than honored to have been involved in that. Many come to watch and see the Elf Pack for the first time. One of my ogres was painted by my husband and Bill put him in a Hawaiian shirt. He now honors Gary Gygax who loved those shirts and many Cons in this area have Hawaiian shirt day in Gary’s honor. When he comes lumbering out with his big dumb affect, I always get a huge laugh! I think this is a powerful gateway game and deserves a robust fan base, I also believe the new release does it justice.

E: If there’s one thing you want HeroQuest players to remember about your work, what would it be?

KLC: I love fighting, gathering gold and all manner of booty. But never, ever abandon engrossing story-telling, colorful character portrayal, puzzle solving and cooperation.

E: Do you still play HeroQuest, or other fantasy games? If so, what is your favourite type of character to play as?

KLC: Yes! I am usually a male dwarf. I am stubborn, reactionary, a fighter and loud. Yeah, I’m a dwarf!

E: After designing the Elf Quest Pack, did you continue on designing any other games? What career path did you choose? What are you up to currently?

KLC: No… I went back to college to get an early childhood degree. Fell in love with people with social emotional disabilities, and ended up as a behavioral specialist and lecturer as well as working with troubled and incarcerated youth. Who, by the way, learned a lot by playing games in my classroom!


Burning Questions Unanswered for the Last 30 Years

E: There are some additional questions about the expansion that we haven’t been able to answer in 30+ years, these might be difficult to answer, but we can’t pass up the opportunity! Why did you decide to give Ogres 10 Body Points? (they’re very powerful monsters, and their body points were reduced in the 2022 edition)

KLC: Ogres were meant to be bad asses. Period.

E: Is the prospector an elf, human or a dwarf?

KLC: He was meant to be a human who stumbled into a story he didn’t quite understand.

E: Do you remember where the Elven Bracers were intended to be found by the heroes? (there is an artifact card for them, but they’re never included in any quest)

KLC: I believe I was supposed to make some treasures to find. In any case, that is how I usually incorporate them now!

E: Was the Elven Chain Mail Set intended to be an Elf-exclusive artifact? (it’s one of the treasures found in Quest 1)

KLC: Elven chain mail was supposed to be elf only, however I don’t think it was written that way!

End of interview.

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