Ogre body Points

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from the Elf Quest Pack: The Mage of the Mirror.

Ogre body Points

Postby Thrawn » Friday March 23rd, 2012 5:04pm

I wanted to see how others feel about the body points of Ogres in this module.

Looking at Phoenix's adaptation of Ogre Warriors from Against the Ogre Horde, there is a huge discrepancy between BP in that module and the Elf Quest pack.

So my question is: Do others usually play ogres at the published 10 BP, or do you usually adjust them? Has anyone tried to come up with a concensus number if they do usually get adjusted? I had forgotten about the 10 BP, and when using an ogre in a quest, if overshadows things it wasn't meant to overshadow.


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Re: Ogre body Points

Postby Daedalus » Sunday April 1st, 2012 7:42am

Nice pick for an early post. Unfortunately, I haven't played past Return of the Witch King, so I can't offer you a validated opinion. Not too many have played that one, as you probably know. It's the least common expasion owned by posters here, only about 1 in 5 of us are lucky or obsessed enough to claim it. Right off, most of the European fans are cut out. In time, I imagine the efforts of drathe and others who make the Elf Quest Pack pdfs available will increase the number European and North American players that are qualified to answer.

That being said, you may or may not have read before that there is a consensus of a sort that the Barbarian Quest Pack at least, and perhaps all the expasions after RotWL were never playtested. Your example is more evidence of this. Are there any other obvious errors in play balance you remember?

Your opinion about the Ogres overshadowing a Quest seems accurate. Maybe the Quest designer was compensating. ;) I personally approve of Phoenix's ogre points, as they pretty much match up with the Against the Ogre Horde numbers. The AtOH Body Point choices--and thus Phoenix's picks--better seem to fit the general Hero Quest power creep upgrade for Quests of that number. However, I'm mainly following others' leads here, as I haven't yet played AtOH, either. Of course, you or others may disagree for valid reasons that I don't yet realize.

The EQP is a cool set of Quests, I'm sure. The designer seems to have upgraded the Ogre Warrior to an Uber Ogre in order to fit it's higher Quest difficulty. He also seemed to desire an Ogre to be more than previously envisaged, a terrifying opponent unlike any other, with more Body points than even the greatest Hero! For those of us, the consensus, who desire continuity between all the released expansions, this is clearly an egregious error contradicting the existing game. It should have been renamed at the least, but it also should have been set with lower Body Points for balance and pacing, as you wisely indicate. The designer apparently wasn't very concerned with either balance or pacing, and certainly wasn't concerned with expansion continuity. What did concern him was upstaging (and probably a deadline). Hooray--ten Body point Ogres are scary. Now let's move on to something that should better fit the Quest Pack and last within the full scope of the game.

An analysis is helpful here. The Ogre stats of the EQP appears to best match the Ogre Chieftain stats of AtOH: the Attack dice are both 6, the Mind points are both 2, and they both have a Move of 4. The important difference is the 4 Defend dice and 10 Body points of the Ogre in contrast to the 6 Defend dice and 4 Body points of the Ogre Chieftian. Judging that the extra 2 black shields will stop 1 in 3 hits, then those Defend dice are worth another 2 Body points: after being damaged 1 BP every turn, an Ogre Chieftian (6 Defend and 4 Body) and an Ogre (4 Defend, 6 Body) will both be dead in six turns. To be equals, the EQP Ogre should be downgraded to 6 Body and 4 Defend (or an AtOH Ogre Chieftian should be upgraded to 6 Body and 6 Defend).

It seems to me the Ogre in the EQP would be the best place to make a change, but not the only one. Some options:

  • Castrate the brute and dress him in leather! Reduce him to a Phoenix Ogre Chieftian with 4 Body, 6 Defend. Keep the Ogre name, as a couple of Ogre Chieftians in a corridor seems wonky and the figures wouldn't match the Ogre Chieftain, anyway. Of course, the "Ogre Chieftians" won't likely have the cool spiked guauntlets either, so you'll just have to pretend.
  • Knock him down to size and give him a nickname. Reduce him to 6 Body, 4 Defend--the most any other HQ monster has (the Frozen Horror). Other Ogre stats remain the same. Call him an Ogre Guard to differentiate him from the previous ogres. This is my fav.
  • Leave the big lug alone, it's just a case of mistaken identity! Leave his Body points at 10 and rename him as a non-Ogre monster, perhaps a Troll.
  • Don't mess with "da Ogre"! Leave the published Ogre as is, even the name. Phoenix's Ogres need to cowboy up, or he'll eat them for breakfast. The AtOH ogres don't count--they used variable Body points tracks! Just thinking about it makes me want to write a nasty email to that Legolasbaker guy! Reverse-engineer the Ogre Chieftian to 6 Body, 6 Defend. Base the other ogres off that.

Thanks for bringing this problem to light. A consensus is warranted, I think.
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Re: Ogre body Points

Postby Thrawn » Sunday April 1st, 2012 11:13am

I'm all for the Phoenix Ogre as a start, at 4 body, 6 defend. However, I'd probably take it a step further and drop his defend to 5. This puts him at the same defense as a gargoyle, and is worthy of his toughness, but still leaves another die of upside for bigger baddies without going over 6 dice. (I'm not set on 6 dice being a max, but I try only to go over 6 in exceptional cases.)

Probably deserving of a separate topic, but I really wish the elves were at 2 BP as well. I think 3 BP was overboard for them...
And while we are at it, wolves could probably drop to 3 BP (maybe 2) and 4 or 5 attack.

The design of the monsters really made no sense in this set...or the Frozen horror set (3 BP for a gremlin? WTF!)


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Re: Ogre body Points

Postby mako-heart » Sunday January 13th, 2013 6:28pm

I own the elf pack and have played it the ogre Bp's i don't think are broke. I will tell you why, i feel this way. they have 2 mind points and you can hypnotic blaze them you can sleep them you can slow them. you can cast the snot out of them all of the heros should be maxed out full armor best weapons and you must have a ton of gold and potion and hero brew and hire men at arms. warp wood turns the clubs to limp noodles . the elf spells are crucial to defeating the wolves and the ogres . you can qwaff potions and hero brew at any time. every party member has to have there role . if you are stuck in with no more magic you can always try to avoid them there movement is only 4 just my own thoughts. It is hard but not impossible. The Bow of vindication is also useful 1 shot kill :2cents:
Last edited by mako-heart on Wednesday February 6th, 2013 10:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ogre body Points

Postby Daedalus » Monday February 4th, 2013 7:17pm

Thanks for contributing playtesting experience, which is worth more than conjecture. I, however, will continue on with my Ogre suggestions, as you have inspired me to stretch things further. I've come up with some alternate Ogre ideas that integrate the Ogres from AtOH and the EQP. Lesser AtOH Ogres lose some Defend Dice to reflect their smaller body mass and lack of armor, but all AtOH Ogres gain a Body Point to compensate and generally cowboy up.

Ogre Warrior .... MS 6, AD 5, DD 4*, BP 4* MP 1 *The DD are reduced to the EQP 4 DD (no armor), but the BPs are increased by 1.
Ogre Champion .. MS 6, AD 5, DD 5, BP 5*, MP 1 *The DD stay at 5, but the BPs are increased by 1, as with the Ogre Warrior.
Ogre Chieftain .. MS 4, AD 3/3*, DD 6, BP 5*, MP 2 *Use multiple attacks of the BQP, and BPs increase by 1 as with the other ogres.
Ogre Lord ........ MS 4, AD 3/3*, DD 6, BP 6*, MP 5 *Use multiple attacks of the BQP, and BPs increase by 1 as with the other ogres.
[An Ogre Chieftain or Ogre Lord still attacks with 6 AD against a single oponent as a Hero only defends once against multiple attacks. -edit]

Ogre Thug ....... MS 4, AD 6, DD 4, BP 7*, MP 2 *The Ogre's BPs are reduced by 3 for an easier equivalent to the Ogre Chieftain.
Ogre Guard ...... MS 4, AD 6, DD 4, BP 10, MP 2 *This is the renamed Ogre of the EQP. The other ogres are based off of it.

Ogre Soldier ..... MS 4, AD 5*, DD 6, BP 5*, MP 1* *The AD, DD, and MPs are reduced by 1 and BPs by 5 for a weaker, armored ogre.
Ogre Captain .....MS 4, AD 6, DD 6*, BP 7*, MP 2 *The BPs are reduced by 3 to create an armored ogre that proxies for the Ogre.
Ogre Warlord .... MS 4, AD 6, DD 6*, BP 10, MP 2 *This armored ogre has 2 more DD than the Ogre.

The Darkworld Ogres can be used as some cheaper, leaner Ogres that match the HQ look fairly well. They could be used as Ogre Warriors and with modification an Ogre Champion, as those figures have fewer Body Points and a faster move.

The Battle Masters Ogre can be used as a proxie for both the Ogre Chieftain and the Ogre Lord, as their better Attack Dice, Defend Dice, and Body Points suggest the larger, armored figure. The Ogre Soldier, Captain, and Warlord were all made with this figure in mind. However, even the Ogre Thug and Guard could use this figure because of the larger size which represents Body Points well.

However, if either the EQP or AtOH was owned, then the Ogre/Ogre Warrior figures would make the best fit for the Ogre Thug and Guard.
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Re: Ogre body Points

Postby Blackthorn » Monday February 4th, 2013 11:42pm

As always, I enjoy Deadelus' thoughtful explanations and insights, but I agree with mako-heart on this one. The Barbarian and Elf Quests were designed for maxed out heroes who need to be challenged by tougher opponents . It even says so on the mail order flyer (ah....if only those coupons were still valid). They even include additional spells, potions and artifacts to bolster them further.

I also don't think continuity between the EPQ and AtOH Ogres was a consideration since the NA and EU games were so different and not designed to be compatible. Fimirs, mercenaries and the Witch Lord all have different stats as well, just to name a few.
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Re: Ogre body Points

Postby The Admiral » Sunday February 14th, 2016 11:26am

Thrawn wrote:I wanted to see how others feel about the body points of Ogres in this module.

Looking at Phoenix's adaptation of Ogre Warriors from Against the Ogre Horde, there is a huge discrepancy between BP in that module and the Elf Quest pack.

So my question is: Do others usually play ogres at the published 10 BP, or do you usually adjust them? Has anyone tried to come up with a concensus number if they do usually get adjusted? I had forgotten about the 10 BP, and when using an ogre in a quest, if overshadows things it wasn't meant to overshadow.


I played with the 10BP's, but I called them Giant Ogres and used the ogre figure from Battlemasters which is much larger than a normal ogre. Also, you will notice that in only one instance is there ever more than one ogre present, and they will most likely not get into play.

My Ogres are Att 5, Def 3, Bdy 4, mnd 1, Mv 5.

5 attack makes sense. big two handed club with a +1 for their strength. Only 3 defence as they have no armour; I alot 1 defence to small beings up to goblin size. 2 for standard size, 3 for large size (ogre), and 4 for very large. To compensate they get an extra BP as they are quite large fellows.
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Re: Ogre body Points

Postby Anderas » Sunday February 14th, 2016 1:01pm

This thread is super interesting. Thanks for the necromancy!

From experience, i can say that i didn't catch it back there when i was 13 and we were playing Heroquest the first time. The group was doing ATOH, and the variable monster stat rule said that as soon as you have to cross off a skull, the ogre who received the wound would die. Well, we were fighting more than one Ogre at a time, and I was not able to find out why one of them was surviving despite receiving tons of BP damage, while the other was dying after the first hit. :o :lol:

I never played with the EQP. From what i know, high BP make better, say "more useful" monsters from a quest planner point of view.
If all the group has max stats, one of them shouldn't be the problem.

Now i am interested, of course, how the entire quest looks like. Never cared to read the quest pack in detail until now.


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Re: Ogre body Points

Postby Anderas » Friday February 19th, 2016 12:58am

I am Playtesting that little beast right now. :D

Here in my PBP game

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