by lestodante wrote:I have a doubt about how the rule for treasure cards was really intended to be.
Many people says the unused potions found in the treasure deck are discarded because the rule says you must return the treasure cards to deck at the end of each Quest.
I think this interpretation is wrong, the cards should be returned to the deck so the Heroes will have the chance to found them again in the next quest and also for the purpose to balance the percentage of positive and negative cards inside the deck.
BUT an unused potion should be written on the back of the character's sheet and be usable during the following quests. Then its card is returned to the deck (at the end of the quest).
Let’s take a step back and examine the Treasure Card mechanism
If you assume that the Treasure Card Mechanism is a good one, by which I mean it achieves the qualities or properties that the designer intended it to do (which I personally think it does very well, “pat on the head” there for being such a very good mechanism), then you can easily list out those properties or qualities.
• Ease of use (for Evil Wizard player): Shuffle the cards and pop them on the table at the start of the game, remind players to shuffle when they put a ‘bad’ card back in, otherwise it pretty much runs itself, you just direct the player to take the top one at the appropriate moment. Unlike a lookup table you don't have to go scurrying back to the rulebook.
• Ease of use (from hero player point of view): You just draw the top card and read the instructions, no need to make notes on your sheet as you have the card – minimal book keeping “in-game”, no need to cross off items when you have used them, just discard the card, card has description of what the item does so no need to keep asking the EWP
• Expandable: Just print another handful of cards for another expansion and shuffle them in
• Unpredictable: Even once you know what cards are in there you can’t ‘know’ which one you’ll get when you draw one.
• Limits on Number and Type in play: If there is only 1 of a particular card “Potion of Strength” for example in the deck then you can’t know when or even if it might be drawn during a Quest but you can ensure that only 1 (or however many of that card there is) maximum can be in play at once in any quest. Scrapping the rule about returning them to the deck between quests means that after 4 Quests a Hero could be equipped with 4 Potions of Strength, that he could use on a single turn against a single opponent which would unbalance the game. And unlike a lookup table once a specific 'good' card has been drawn there is zero chance that it can be drawn again, whatever the odds a lookup table combined with a dice roll can lead to repeated results.
• Nasty surprises: Good and Bad cards, though mostly good, keeps an element of risk as well as reward = excitement
The idea that the cards themselves should be returned to the deck in order to restore the balance of the percentage of positive and negative cards inside the deck, doesn’t make sense to me, if your group of heroes are finding the game easy, perhaps they are more co-operative than most groups, so they end up amassing loads of potions that they don’t need to use as the game is so easy, then you would WANT to change the balance and make the deck MORE challenging, (and the game in general), not keep it balanced.
All that said there is one slight imperfection in this otherwise great mechanism, which is where for example you draw a Holy Water card in a Quest with no Undead, so cannot use it and then lose it at the end or where the timing of the card drawn renders it pointless, kill all the monsters in the last room blocking the exit, leaving you with only 1BP remaining, draw a Healing Potion and walk through the exit, do I use it or chuck it, doesn’t matter.
This is easily fixed without breaking the good properties of the mechanism, you keep ‘good’ treasure cards until you use them, at which point they are discarded and used to form the new deck for the next Quest along with any undrawn cards, the more you don’t use and accumulate (still only a maximum of 1 in play as it doesn’t get returned until the Quest after you use it) the poorer and more dangerous the deck gets, which in turn forces you to use them, the more you use them the richer and less dangerous the deck gets, which in turn allows you to save them, a self-balancing mechanism.
Note: to be clear I'm talking about 'good' treasure cards here in the context of potions and the like, for Gold cards, my players just put them with their character sheet and then total them up 'between quests' and add the total amount to their character sheets. I consider the character sheets to be the permanent record of their characters progress; quests completed, player and hero name, gold/experience amassed and so on, used mainly in the abstract space that is 'Between Quests' for continuity rather than needing to be dug out and scribbled on in-game (at least as little as possible)
What needs to change
SE Rules of Play wrote:Treasure cards
Some of the treasure cards are of gold or jewels. The hero player who finds one of these should record the value of the treasure on their character sheet. The card is then discarded. It is not returned to the treasure card pile.
Other treasure cards show traps or wandering monsters. These cards should be read out and the instructions followed immediately. Trap cards and wandering monster cards are returned to the treasure card pile. The treasure card pile is then shuffled before another treasure card is taken.
I never understood why you have to document the value on your character sheet at this point and then discard the card, surely you could just keep the card until the end then total them up and record it on your character sheet. Not a major issue but a better tweak perhaps.
More importantly this section above clearly tells you how to handle treasure cards with a gold value and treasure cards with traps and wandering monsters but neglects to mention the third type of card, those with potions or similar.
SE Rules of Play wrote:Between Quests
If your hero survives, you may keep them and use them again in later Quests. In this case you may keep any Quest treasure cards you have found, and you may spend any treasure recorded on your character sheet to buy better equipment (armour, weapons, and so on). You may not keep ordinary treasure cards.
This one states that you cannot keep 'ordinary' treasure cards, logically these must be the potions ones I have referred to above as missing, so we now have a complete set.
Against the Ogre Horde wrote:Playing the Quests as a Series
The Evil Wizard player should reshuffle the treasure pack between each Quest, returning any used treasure cards from the previous Quest to the pack.
This one specifies returning used treasure cards to the pack, which contradicts the earlier rule. Although this is from an expansion so it could be viewed as an update or a "clarification" (in the HQ sense of the word meaning a later addition that confuses things further). Equally it could be regarded as a special rule that only applies when "playing quests as a series".
Personally I would go with something like the following:
SE Rules of Play wrote:Treasure cards
Some of the treasure cards are of gold or jewels or potions. The hero player who finds one of these should keep the treasure card with their character sheet. Other treasure cards show traps or wandering monsters. These cards should be read out and the instructions followed immediately. Trap cards, wandering monster cards and the "nothing" card are returned to the treasure card pile, which must then be shuffled.
SE Rules of Play wrote:Between Quests
If your hero survives, you may keep them and use them again in later Quests. In this case you may keep any Quest treasure and treasure cards you have found. Treasure cards that are of gold or jewels need to be added up and the total recorded on your character sheet, this can be used to buy better equipment (armour, weapons, and so on). These cards are then added back into the treasure card pile ready for the next Quest. You may keep potion and similar treasure cards for your next quests.
= white skull, one "hit"
= black skull, one "hit"
= shield, cancels out one "hit"
