Using Wizards of Morcar as a 'parts pack'?

[Zenithfleet]

G'day all,

Because Wizards of Morcar is the final EU expansion if playing through them in order, we've never managed to get that far. Just making it through Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord is an odyssey in itself... Also, WoM clearly wasn't playtested too well and has several issues.

In my experience, the base game quests have been played a LOT over the years, KK and RotWL occasionally by dedicated players, and AtOH rarely. WoM never gets a look-in at all.

However, there's a lot of fun new material in WoM. It seems a shame to never use it.

So I've been thinking about using it as a 'parts pack' to spice up the rest of the game. Instead of waiting until all the other Quest Packs are completed (which we've never managed to do), we would just add as much of the material as possible into the basic game and have it available early on. But will this work? Will it totally unbalance the game?

(NB: In terms of balance, I'm talking about the classic EU 2nd edition played by the rules as written, not the old or new North American edition, or heavily homebrewed and modified versions. So 1-body-point Monsters, instant death if you reach 0BP, the standard EU treasure and equipment decks, you can attack other players if you want, etc.)

For instance:


Men-at-Arms

In the base game rulebook (2nd ed EU), you become a Champion after completing three Quests. But there's no reward for doing so. You can also permanently outlaw yourself and never become a Champion if you keep Prince Magnus' Gold for yourself.

Curiously, though, Wizards of Morcar's questbook mentions that 'Champions' can hire Men-at-Arms.

So how about allowing the players to hire Men-at-Arms after they've completed three Quests and become Champions? It would give them something else to spend their gold on. Would this heavily unbalance the base game quests, or are MaA fragile enough that it won't matter too much?

Being able to spend gold on MaA would also give you something to do with all the money found during KK, RotWL and AtOH ... but you'd have to decide whether they can be hired between Quests, or if you have to buy them all at the start of the Quest Pack and hope they survive! By the rules as written, you can buy new things during KK and RotWL (somehow ... enterprising goblins and zombies I assume), but I don't think Ogre Horde lets you do that.


Treasure cards from WoM (and Magic Reference Chart)

These are pretty straightforward to include in the base game from the get-go. The ratio of good to bad cards is roughly the same as the standard EU deck.

You need to refer to the Magic Reference Chart for the fireburst trap rules. Fortunately, the fireburst traps work much better if triggered by treasure cards than they do in the WoM marked rooms, because they might be triggered after other players have already taken their turn and won't be able to escape the impending kaboom.

The Potions of Magical Resistance won't be very useful in the base game because few EU enemies have spells. Still, the one that defends against fireburst traps and Fire spells will probably be moderately useful now that firebursts are in the Treasure deck (and of course Balur the Fire Mage is in the base game).

Note also that in the 2nd ed EU rules as written, you can't keep potions found from treasure searches (i.e. on cards) from Quest to Quest. It looks as if the WoM designers either forgot this or house-ruled it away--as many of us young players did--because the Potion of Charm from WoM can only be used between Quests. Strictly speaking, you would never have that potion card between Quests and could never drink it! This is easy enough to deal with, though: you drink it at the end of the Quest you found it in, and assume its effects last until the start of the next Quest.


Spells of Detection, Protection and Darkness

Things get a bit more complicated here.

It seems to be generally agreed that these spells are weak compared to the standard Air/Earth/Fire/Water spells. The Wizard and Elf are therefore unlikely to take them instead of their elemental spells, even while playing through WoM.

But what if the WoM spells could be taken as well as the regular spells?

For example, suppose that the Elf or Wizard could buy an expensive equipment card (like a ring or robe) that lets them take the three Spells of Darkness in every quest. They still get their usual set(s) of elemental spells as well. The WoM spells are like a bonus that they can use as long as they have that equipment card.

This would also help to solve the problem of the Wizard having nothing to spend gold on later in the game.

Something like this:

Ring of Protection
(use NA art of Ring of Return?)
This ring lets you take the Spells of Protection in each Quest, as well as your other spells.
May only be used by the Elf or Wizard.
Cost 850 gold coins.

Robe of Dusk
(use NA art of a wizard's cloak with stars and moons on it?)
This robe lets you take the Spells of Darkness in each Quest, as well as your other spells.
May only be used by the Elf or Wizard. May not be used with the Cloak of Protection.
Cost 950 gold coins.
ARMOUR

Sands of Time
(use NA Elf Quest Pack art of an hourglass on a table?)
This hourglass lets you take the Spells of Detection in each Quest, as well as your other spells.
May only be used by the Elf or Wizard.
Cost 850 gold coins.

(The spells themselves probably need a bit of tweaking, but that's more a matter of errata - e.g. Treasure Horde should let you pick 1 card and discard the other two, rather than taking all three; Clairvoyance should reveal where traps are located in the room.)


The four Evil Wizard monsters, and the WoM quests

This may be the craziest of the above ideas, but ... what if the four evil wizards could be met throughout the other Quest Packs? For instance, you might run into the Orc Shaman somewhere in Kellar's Keep, and the Necromancer during Return of the Witch Lord.

Maybe each of the five quests in WoM could be split off as a 'bonus Quest' that you can only find through a hidden second exit in a regular Quest. (Similar to the secret Belorn's Mine quest in KK.) So during Kellar's Keep you might exit the level through the 'wrong' door and end up playing the Orc Shaman's quest from WoM.

Obviously this would be a big change and you'd probably want to do some more tinkering, like rewards or adjusting difficulty. It would also mean that if you ever actually make it as far as WoM you'll skip any Quests you already completed.

A less drastic version is to simply include the evil wizard monsters themselves as 'bonus bosses' in certain Quests. From reports, they seem to be fairly underpowered in terms of spells and stats (like a lot of the EU boss monsters), so they might actually work better if encountered during the base game, KK and/or RotWL.


Anyway, just some ideas. Let me know what you reckon.

[Zenithfleet]

Just want to add that the cardboard tiles found in Wizards of Morcar are also really useful for custom effects in homemade quests.

The Earthquake tile is meant to be used only for a spell, but if you lay it out on the board when the heroes enter a new area, it can count as a fissure in the ground that cuts across rooms and corridors. It could also be triggered like a pit trap--an earthquake rips open the floor, tipping the heroes into it and opening up the rooms it cuts through.

The breached wall tokens are supposed to be used with the Earthquake tile, but to be honest they don't seem to be needed (the Earthquake tile itself does a decent job of visually carving through the walls). The breached walls would, however, be handy for breaking walls at other times. You could have a collapsed wall already on the board when the heroes enter, instead of a door or a secret door--effectively combining two or more rooms into a single large one that is all revealed at once. You could have destructible walls (like the bombable walls in Zelda). And so on. They could also free up the number of open and closed doors available to use for a single Quest.

The Walls of Fire, Stone and Ice (if you have stands for them) could be used for a variety of things other than the WoM spells. For instance, the Wall of Fire could activate after heroes walk into a room, effectively trapping them inside like a locked door. The Wall of Stone could move every turn down the two-space-wide corridor like the classic crushing wall of Saturday morning cartoons. And so on.

(I'm sure the above is obvious but I'm just thinking aloud ...)

[lestodante]

I've always considered WoM as an unfinished pack (few quests, bad story, no real epilogue) or as a better version of the Adventure Design Kit; they added a lot of new stuff which is unfortunately badly used in the questbook but can be useful for creating new quests and new rules.
I'd likely meant the 3 new set of spells for the Wizard only because he is depitched on the decks (as the Elf spells in the EQP). The Elf already can upgrade his equipment but the Wizard is still very weak. Giving him the chance to ADD one set of the three new (weak) spells is the best option for me. I remember Merlino from the Gauntlet videogame (Slayer Edition) where he can chose one of the three books available and this will influence his spells. My idea was about a book of Darkness, a book of Protection and a book of Detection. Mana points may be required to use the spells in the books; there is a post about MANA and another about casting spells where I posted also new Wizard Staves (Phoenix Staff, Sea Staff and others).
Also it seems to me that 64 was the number for a standard deck of cards for that era so that's possibly why they filled the deck with a lot of man at arms cards and also why no cards were featured in the previous questpacks (not enough stuff to fill a whole deck of 64 cards).
The questbook also has some bugs or is not very clear, in the last quest you must reveal the 4 sorcerers at the start of the quest in the central room but if a Wandering Monster card is drawn, that's one of the Sorcerers... so would they teleport? And what if one of them have been killed already? There are also 5 WM cards in the treasure deck, so which sorcerer should be used eventually as a fifth (and the WM cards are returned to the deck too). Or I guess the quest ends as soon as the 4th sorcerer is killed.
Fireburst trap has a whole topic on its own on the forum as it represents no real menace as ruled in the questbook.

[wallydubbs]

So I've been thinking about using it as a 'parts pack' to spice up the rest of the game. Instead of waiting until all the other Quest Packs are completed (which we've never managed to do), we would just add as much of the material as possible into the basic game and have it available early on. But will this work? Will it totally unbalance the game?

Men-at-Arms

In the base game rulebook (2nd ed EU), you become a Champion after completing three Quests. But there's no reward for doing so. You can also permanently outlaw yourself and never become a Champion if you keep Prince Magnus' Gold for yourself.

Curiously, though, Wizards of Morcar's questbook mentions that 'Champions' can hire Men-at-Arms.

So how about allowing the players to hire Men-at-Arms after they've completed three Quests and become Champions? It would give them something else to spend their gold on. Would this heavily unbalance the base game quests, or are MaA fragile enough that it won't matter too much?

Treasure cards from WoM (and Magic Reference Chart)

These are pretty straightforward to include in the base game from the get-go. The ratio of good to bad cards is roughly the same as the standard EU deck.

You need to refer to the Magic Reference Chart for the fireburst trap rules. Fortunately, the fireburst traps work much better if triggered by treasure cards than they do in the WoM marked rooms, because they might be triggered after other players have already taken their turn and won't be able to escape the impending kaboom.

The Potions of Magical Resistance won't be very useful in the base game because few EU enemies have spells. Still, the one that defends against fireburst traps and Fire spells will probably be moderately useful now that firebursts are in the Treasure deck (and of course Balur the Fire Mage is in the base game).

Note also that in the 2nd ed EU rules as written, you can't keep potions found from treasure searches (i.e. on cards) from Quest to Quest. It looks as if the WoM designers either forgot this or house-ruled it away--as many of us young players did--because the Potion of Charm from WoM can only be used between Quests. Strictly speaking, you would never have that potion card between Quests and could never drink it! This is easy enough to deal with, though: you drink it at the end of the Quest you found it in, and assume its effects last until the start of the next Quest.


Spells of Detection, Protection and Darkness

Things get a bit more complicated here.

It seems to be generally agreed that these spells are weak compared to the standard Air/Earth/Fire/Water spells. The Wizard and Elf are therefore unlikely to take them instead of their elemental spells, even while playing through WoM.

But what if the WoM spells could be taken as well as the regular spells?

For example, suppose that the Elf or Wizard could buy an expensive equipment card (like a ring or robe) that lets them take the three Spells of Darkness in every quest. They still get their usual set(s) of elemental spells as well. The WoM spells are like a bonus that they can use as long as they have that equipment card.

This would also help to solve the problem of the Wizard having nothing to spend gold on later in the game.

The four Evil Wizard monsters, and the WoM quests

This may be the craziest of the above ideas, but ... what if the four evil wizards could be met throughout the other Quest Packs? For instance, you might run into the Orc Shaman somewhere in Kellar's Keep, and the Necromancer during Return of the Witch Lord.

Anyway, just some ideas. Let me know what you reckon.

A lot of what you're suggesting has been done, more or less, by players at the inn. Many of the players will wait until this quest pack to introduce the new wizard spells, but I'm not one of them. I think these new spells, if modified correctly can be brought up to par with the existing elemental spells offering a variety of flavor to the original quest pack. The same can be said for the Mage of the Mirror Elf spells. Using the resources of the Inn I have been able to modify my Hero Quest game play in this manner.
The Wizard's of Morcar monster spells aren't up to par either in comparison to the North American Chaos Spells cards. So if you want to play "Wizard's of Zargon" some editing will need to be made too.

When it comes to Men-at-Arms and buying mercenaries I'm very welcoming to adding this to the Game System. I generally use The Maze from the first European edition hero quest as a friendly introduction to my heroes. The Trial will come later, as this is the MOST difficult quest of the game system. By tweaking the intro to this quest we can change the meaning of "The Trial" to being the The Trial to becoming Champions. After completing this quest, since there is no gold reward, the heroes may become Champions at the completion of this quest and from there allowed to hire mercenaries.
I would also add the incentive of keeping mercenaries for 10 gold after each quest. In the North American Frozen Horror, you keep the mercenary for the same price of hire, but I think Wizard's of Morcar had a better rule for keeping them.

The treasure deck would make a fine addition to bothe North American and European editions, depending how you handle it. I'm all for adding Magical Traps in the treasure deck as it would allow the heroes to go through Potions of Magic Resistance more often, including in quests that may not even have an enemy spell caster. These Potions of Magic Resistance would be very useful against Chaos Spells, so I'm all for it.
However there is the case for Potion of Magical Aptitude. This couldn't jive well with North American play due to the Artifact Wand of Magic, as it allows the Wizard to cast 2 spells on the same turn. I would suggest removing this Artifact, adding it in as an artifact if the heroes reach Wizard's of Zargon, that makes the Potion of Magical Aptitude much more scarce in the early quest packs, but also much more valued.

In regards to the spells, it's an interesting take to make these available to the Wizard via purchase. I tried playing the Game System with these new spells added as possible picks for the Wizard at the very start, free of charge. Like it said, it adds quite a bit of flavor.
However these spells really aren't up to par with the North American spells, so I've tweaked them a bit:
Spells of Darkness:
Arrows of the Night- attacks a monster for 2BP of damage (not 2 combat dice), monsters defend with dice equal to their mind points.
This puts undead at a serious disadvantage, but makes it slightly more effective then Ball of Flame, unless they have more MP then defend dice.
Chains of Darkness - keep as is, monsters lose a turn unless they are spell casters (they just can't move or physically attack).
Cloak of Shadows- you can keep this the same two but for 1 minor alteration, the Wizard players may dispell the Cloak at any time he chooses, this avoids the loophole of a monster hiding in the Cloak of Shadows, which can never be dispersed.

Spells of Detection:
Clairvoyance- reveals any one room and it's contents to the Wizard, this will include traps, Secret Doors, quest treasures and the next card from the treasure deck (which would be designated to that room). If the Wizard picks a room that is shown to be shaded gray on the quest map, this is NOT a room and just considered stone, so he MAY try again.
Future Sight:some people mistake this spell as forcing a hero to reroll ALL his dice, but this is not so. If attacking and he only gets 1 , he may keep that but reroll the others. The same can be said about defense, keep your but reroll all other combat dice.
Treasure Horde- I like this spell as is and would keep it, knowing it could backfire, adding an element of risk, but you can change it for your group. But then again my treasure deck has a ratio of 2 to 3 favorable draws.

Spells of Protection-
Dispell- when cast allows the Wizard to do 1 of the following: disarm a magical trap (I allow wizard trap searches to detect magical traps), force an enemy spell caster to discard one spell card at random, or negate a spell currently afflicting another hero (Such as Command, Fear, etc.)
Invisibility- allows a hero to move unseen through monsters, they cannot be attacked or be the target of a spell. Since the Invisible hero cannot be attacked, he may perform any other action BUT attack.
Wall of Stone- keep as is with the added incentive that the Wizard can dispell it at any time.

I have no objection to making these monsters reoccurring. In fact I recently played Lair of the Orc Warlord, giving Ulag the same stats and spells as the Orc Shaman. It was brutal, but the heroes depleted their healing potions, barely succeeding but it made the victory feel much more earned.

I think Wizard's of Morcar can still be played as Wizard's of Zargon, giving the monsters North American stats, you'll just need to add a reward after each of these quests.
Also try printing out Chaos Spell cards, and apply them to your European game play, it might make it more challenging.

[lestodante]

Treasure Hoard can be very risky! My version allows to draw 5 cards, and discard two of them.
Wall of Stone, I would increase its body points.

[Kurgan]

I hadn't thought about the potion of charm. Maybe you just chug it immediately or near the end of the quest, the effects carry over into your shopping/hiring phase.

[wallydubbs]

I hadn't thought about the potion of charm. Maybe you just chug it immediately or near the end of the quest, the effects carry over into your shopping/hiring phase.

I think Potion of Charm is one of those potions you can use in between quests, just like potion of Alchemy.

[lestodante]

Note also that in the 2nd ed EU rules as written, you can't keep potions found from treasure searches (i.e. on cards) from Quest to Quest. It looks as if the WoM designers either forgot this or house-ruled it away--as many of us young players did--because the Potion of Charm from WoM can only be used between Quests. Strictly speaking, you would never have that potion card between Quests and could never drink it! This is easy enough to deal with, though: you drink it at the end of the Quest you found it in, and assume its effects last until the start of the next Quest.

I have a doubt about how the rule for treasure cards was really intended to be.
Many people says the unused potions found in the treasure deck are discarded because the rule says you must return the treasure cards to deck at the end of each Quest.
I think this interpretation is wrong, the cards should be returned to the deck so the Heroes will have the chance to found them again in the next quest and also for the purpose to balance the percentage of positive and negative cards inside the deck.
BUT an unused potion should be written on the back of the character's sheet and be usable during the following quests. Then its card is returned to the deck (at the end of the quest).

[wallydubbs]

Note also that in the 2nd ed EU rules as written, you can't keep potions found from treasure searches (i.e. on cards) from Quest to Quest. It looks as if the WoM designers either forgot this or house-ruled it away--as many of us young players did--because the Potion of Charm from WoM can only be used between Quests. Strictly speaking, you would never have that potion card between Quests and could never drink it! This is easy enough to deal with, though: you drink it at the end of the Quest you found it in, and assume its effects last until the start of the next Quest.

I have a doubt about how the rule for treasure cards was really intended to be.
Many people says the unused potions found in the treasure deck are discarded because the rule says you must return the treasure cards to deck at the end of each Quest.
I think this interpretation is wrong, the cards should be returned to the deck so the Heroes will have the chance to found them again in the next quest and also for the purpose to balance the percentage of positive and negative cards inside the deck.
BUT an unused potion should be written on the back of the character's sheet and be usable during the following quests. Then its card is returned to the deck (at the end of the quest).

Yeah, I gotta agree with Lesto, but maybe because that's how I play it in the North American version. Much like there is an absence of equipment cards, you write it on your sheet.
Also the quest notes may often grant potions and treasures not in the deck, these are written down too.
I feel potions found in a quest are kept despite returning the card to the deck for the next quest.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Men At Arms

Being able to spend gold on MaA would also give you something to do with all the money found during KK, RotWL and AtOH ... but you'd have to decide whether they can be hired between Quests, or if you have to buy them all at the start of the Quest Pack and hope they survive! By the rules as written, you can buy new things during KK and RotWL (somehow ... enterprising goblins and zombies I assume), but I don't think Ogre Horde lets you do that.

I’ve never been a fan of the Men-At-Arms concept or its implementation, the idea of keeping the game simple, dynamic, punchy and engaging when you introduce double digit parties makes me shudder, so I won’t comment too much on this other than to say that AToH gives you the choice as to whether to play as a series or not and if you do then you can’t purchase Equipment between Quests but Mentor can “magically transport” replacement Heroes so whether his transporter can also beam up Men-At-Arms is open to interpretation as usual.

Spells of Detection, Protection and Darkness

I’ve considered before whether to go with your suggestion of spellcasters (or just The Wizard) having the opportunity to purchase what look very much like Artefacts which ‘unlock’ these spells (for free) VERSUS using artefacts given away for free / In Quest / Quest Rewards (consistent with how artefacts are already handled) to boost MP and that MP* boost ‘unlocking’ the ability for the Wizard (and possibly the elf) to ‘buy’ these additional spells.

*I’m referring to starting not current MP here, again for consistency and simplicity.

For example Wizard MP6 gets 3 spell sets (Min MP3 +3), so Wizard with Talisman of Lore (+1 or +2 MP depending on your edition would get the opportunity to buy an extra set of 3 spells (or 2 sets) for a price. I think I prefer the second option, on the grounds of consistency.

Treasure Deck

I agree with yours points on this, although I do think that some of the new treasure cards could do with a clean up (around the names and function, like magical protection from magical fire, simply cries out to be a Potion of Fire Protection irrespective of the source of the fire)

Note also that in the 2nd ed EU rules as written, you can't keep potions found from treasure searches (i.e. on cards) from Quest to Quest. It looks as if the WoM designers either forgot this or house-ruled it away--as many of us young players did--because the Potion of Charm from WoM can only be used between Quests. Strictly speaking, you would never have that potion card between Quests and could never drink it! This is easy enough to deal with, though: you drink it at the end of the Quest you found it in, and assume its effects last until the start of the next Quest.

Agreed, but I’ll pick up on lestodante’s point around the treasure cards and their use later as that is an interesting topic in its own right!