Cloak of Shadows; Overpowered?

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from the Wizards of Morcar Quest Pack.

Re: Cloak of Shadows; Overpowered?

Postby Count Mohawk » Friday December 26th, 2014 11:50pm

Wouldn't the simplest way to fix the Cloak of Shadows, if it is indeed broken, be to allow the caster to voluntarily dismiss the Cloak on his turn? You'd probably want this feature anyway, in case you accidentally cover a secret door you needed to move forward in the level, leading to an instant failure condition, barring pass through rock shenanigans.


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Created a Hot Topic. Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle!
User avatar
Marquis of Math
Count Mohawk

Elven Archer
Elven Archer
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Thursday July 11th, 2013 5:18pm
Location: New England, USA
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Hero:
Usergroups:
Champion Group Member

Advertisement

Make a small donation to Ye Olde Inn!

Donate via Paypal

Every cent received goes toward Ye Olde Inn's maintenance and allows us to continue providing the best resources for HeroQuest and Fantasy Gaming fans.

Re: Cloak of Shadows; Overpowered?

Postby Sotiris » Saturday December 27th, 2014 4:17am

Count Mohawk wrote:Wouldn't the simplest way to fix the Cloak of Shadows, if it is indeed broken, be to allow the caster to voluntarily dismiss the Cloak on his turn? You'd probably want this feature anyway, in case you accidentally cover a secret door you needed to move forward in the level, leading to an instant failure condition, barring pass through rock shenanigans.

No, it has to be hard to decide where to summon the Cloak. I prefer it as the original, with the following addition:
Sotiris wrote:
HeroQuestFrance wrote:It disappears when the spell launcher dies.

This is the only addition i did in my spell card to fix some problems.

..the caster voluntarily kills himself to save the quest for the others. I find it fair enough.


Rewards:
Hosted a Play-by-Post game. Played a turn in five (5) Play-by-Post games. Created a Hot Topic. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Sotiris

Necromancer
Necromancer
 
Posts: 321
Images: 14
Joined: Sunday November 10th, 2013 3:23am
Location: Athens, Greece
Forum Language: Ελληνικά
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Cloak of Shadows; Overpowered?

Postby Malcadon » Saturday December 27th, 2014 4:39am

I tend to avoid converting the UK sets for my own game, as they tend to have a lot of little play issues. If I was to convert the Spells of Darkness cards for my own use:

Arrows of the Night
You may fire up to three magical bolts of pure darkness at any target within your line of sight. Each bolt attack the target with one attack die, with no defense roll. Use markers to note the number of shots remaining.

(Notes: I changed the effect to reflect tho card art. It basically acts as Magical Throwing Daggers, but with three shots. I only use Mind Points to resist mind-effecting spells, not magical attacks.)

Chains of Darkness
You may cast this spell on a single figure within sight. The figure must pass a Mind roll to resist its effect. If not, it cannot move or attack on their next turn, although they may defend and cast spells as normal.

(Notes: This is the type spell-effect I do allow for Mind Point-based rolls.)

Cloak of Shadows
Shroud of Shadows
You summon a veil of magical darkness to obscure everything within and beyond! Place a Shroud of Shadows tile on the gameboard (it may cover furniture, but not overlap with walls). This piece may not be moved and lasts until the and of the Quest — keep this card by the side of the gameboard for reference. This tile blocks all visibility with regards to ranged actions. Any figure within the tile are are limited to melee-range actions, are subject to blindness and have full cover.

(Notes: I like "Veil" or "Shroud" better, as they sound more macabre than "Cloak" -- I would use "Veil", but that is already taken by another spell, and I like to avoid confusion. In the rules I use, there are more extensive rules covering visibility, as well as attack/defense adjustments for things like cover and blindness/darkness. Basically, "subject to blindness and have full cover" means :whiteshield: needed to hit, and two more dice to defense. A figure outside of the shroud could attack someone within without being subject to blindness/darkness.)


Rewards:
Created a Hot Topic. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Malcadon

Ogre Chieftain
Ogre Chieftain
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Friday March 9th, 2012 7:47pm
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Hero:
Usergroups:
Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Cloak of Shadows; Overpowered?

Postby Jafazo » Sunday December 28th, 2014 11:19pm

Here's my take on it...

When the spell, Cloak of Shadows, uses the word Attack, it's referencing the Attack action recognized in Hero Quests rulebook, not the general idea I have about what an attack is. If the spell wanted to grant a target complete immunity from damage it would say that, but since it uses the word attack and attack is a keyword/term defined within HQ's rules, I have to translate the spells text as telling me that it's referencing the games keyword Attack action, not my own idea of what an attack is.

Once I realize this and I reread the text in the spell, Cloak of Shadows, it says to me, "No one within its area of effect may use the Attack action we explained in our rulebook, nor may anyone be attacked using the Attack action we explained in our rulebook, nor may anyone cast any spells as we explained within our rulebook." This means that the target can still be harmed with spells and other effects that aren't considered melee attacks as it explains in the rulebook, so all damage inflicting spells would work.

Magical throwing daggers would work because their damage, when thrown, are explained as simply always inflicting 1 body point of damage. We aren't told whether the damage is combat based or magical, such as if the dagger explodes with a magical burst of energy, so we can't effectively rule it out. The same goes for spell scrolls and the Elven Bow of Vindication, which allows the target a chance to avoid being killed by rolling a black shield on one combat die, but it doesn't specify that the target is defending against a combat based attack as explained in the Attack action. We could even argue that if it did, that the victim should be allowed to roll its defend dice, as explained in the Attack based action but since it isn't and is rolling only one automatic defend die, that the defend die does not represent his usual combat dice to defend.
User avatar
Jafazo

Gargoyle
Gargoyle
 
Posts: 125
Joined: Monday September 1st, 2014 3:52pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Hero:
Usergroups:
Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Cloak of Shadows; Overpowered?

Postby Goblin-King » Monday December 29th, 2014 6:45am

I'm still not sure what the problem is... :?

It's a spell that creates a safe zone; the price being you can't be offensive yourself. Simple as that.
In my humble opinion I think it's the intention that the field is 100% impenetrable from both sides.
Nothing can be harmed inside the zone, and those inside can't harm anyone themselves NO MATTER THE SOURCE OF THE HARM.

The intention is to hide the wizard (or any low BP hero) while clearing a hard room.
You can of course do some min/max gaming and move into the zone after attacking and stuff like that, granting a damage free round every second round; assuming you'd want to move outside again next turn to attack.
And the monsters are free to do the same thing.
Using it like this is pretty powerful, but not more than Courage in my opinion.

The only problem I see is Quest objective bosses hiding inside, but come on... The solution here is quite simple...
DON'T BE A DICK!


Rewards:
Created a Hot Topic. Participated in four (4) Miniature Exchanges. Destroyed a Zombie! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Ye Olde Judge Dredd
Goblin-King
Really looks like David Bowie

Polar Warbear
Polar Warbear
 
Posts: 3307
Images: 84
Joined: Monday September 26th, 2011 2:54pm
Location: Sønderholm, Denmark
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group Member Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Cloak of Shadows; Overpowered?

Postby Jafazo » Monday December 29th, 2014 11:14am

Goblin-King wrote:I'm still not sure what the problem is... :?

It's a spell that creates a safe zone; the price being you can't be offensive yourself. Simple as that.
In my humble opinion I think it's the intention that the field is 100% impenetrable from both sides.
Nothing can be harmed inside the zone, and those inside can't harm anyone themselves NO MATTER THE SOURCE OF THE HARM.

The intention is to hide the wizard (or any low BP hero) while clearing a hard room.
You can of course do some min/max gaming and move into the zone after attacking and stuff like that, granting a damage free round every second round; assuming you'd want to move outside again next turn to attack.
And the monsters are free to do the same thing.
Using it like this is pretty powerful, but not more than Courage in my opinion.

The only problem I see is Quest objective bosses hiding inside, but come on... The solution here is quite simple...
DON'T BE A DICK!


There's nothing wrong with it when you explain it in fair terms the way you do but the problem I read about before I replied was that others mentioned, if it's in fact a 100% impenetrable & safe zone from both sides, that a 'Bad Guy' could slip into the zone and stay safe forever. If the bad guy who slipped in was the same bad guy who the Heroes came to kill, they have a problem.

When you say, "The intention is to hide the wizard (or any low BP hero) while clearing a hard room." that's an assumption, or an interpretation of how you see the spell playing out or otherwise being used, and frankly, I agree with your point of view. I totally see it as playing that kind of a role but when others mention the 'Loophole' regarding the bad guy, I took a second look because it was true. After looking more closely I realized that 'attack' wasn't implying any typical attack. It means that you can't attack, per the attack action, or be attacked per the attack action, nor can you cast spells. So the Cloak of Shadows, in my opinion, simply prevents you from melee'ing back and forth. Even someone standing outside the Cloak of Shadow couldn't melee an adjacent foe standing inside it. It negates melee, and when I look at it that way, the spell makes sense and is not overpowered.

To say it negates damage 100% though? If you do that, the spell becomes broken.
User avatar
Jafazo

Gargoyle
Gargoyle
 
Posts: 125
Joined: Monday September 1st, 2014 3:52pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Hero:
Usergroups:
Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Cloak of Shadows; Overpowered?

Postby knightkrawler » Monday December 29th, 2014 12:16pm

I'm with Jafazo (well, and Goblin-King, too). But I don't see a problem with the spell being OP at all.
If a dick-EWP places his quest objective figure into the cloak of shadows, heroes can still cast some offensive spells from outside on figures inside the CoS.
It's in the wording. Use Genie or Ball of Flame or Fire of Wrath.
Those are three that can do damage to a figure inside the CoS.
It's not overpowered as stated by several posters above.
HQ - Heroes & Villains (Dropbox-download link) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jgj0kzsys9w38oh/AAA_VEHx6vMv4HKRX7IiOWTFa?dl=0
Feedback http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3560
Gallery http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1972&hilit=knightkrawler+gallery&start=200
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I've found a way of paying off old debts:
Always make more promises than you can break.


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Created a Hot Topic. Participated in three (3) Miniature Exchanges. Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy! Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Cheese Baron
knightkrawler
The Furry Blue Derailer

Witch Lord
Witch Lord
 
Posts: 5614
Images: 27
Joined: Friday May 25th, 2012 2:26pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Adventurers' Guild Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Cloak of Shadows; Overpowered?

Postby Goblin-King » Monday December 29th, 2014 1:46pm

Posting it again for easy reference:
Cloak of Shadows:
This spell summons a shroud of darkness. Place the Cloak of Shadows tile on the game board. Any figure in the shadows may not attack, be attacked or cast spells while they are there. The Cloak of Shadows may not be moved and lasts until the end of the Quest. Place this card beside the game board for reference.

You are right! RAW, spells can be cast INTO the cloak, but not OUT from it.
I'm still not convinced it's not intended to just be a 100% safe zone; and if the wizard has already used his damage spells and the monsters have none, it in fact IS.


Rewards:
Created a Hot Topic. Participated in four (4) Miniature Exchanges. Destroyed a Zombie! Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Ye Olde Judge Dredd
Goblin-King
Really looks like David Bowie

Polar Warbear
Polar Warbear
 
Posts: 3307
Images: 84
Joined: Monday September 26th, 2011 2:54pm
Location: Sønderholm, Denmark
Forum Language: British English
Evil Sorcerer: Morcar
Hero:
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group Member Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Re: Cloak of Shadows; Overpowered?

Postby Daedalus » Tuesday June 2nd, 2015 4:24pm

Myself, I'm not okay with casting spells into the Cloak of Shadows. Casting a damaging spell such as Fire of Wrath or Ball of Flame requires the target be visible with an unobstructed line of sight from the spellcaster. Since "this spell summons a shroud of darkness," my thinking is line of sight must cross this visibility-obstructing effect of shadows.

Even if you don't agree with this interpretation, casting a Genie spell into the Cloak of Shadows won't work. A Genie will "use 5 combat dice to attack any monster within your line of sight." It is explicitly stated figures within the Cloak of Shadows may not be attacked.

Arrows of the Night is another Darkness spell the Wizard will have available. I'd say that it also couldn't be cast against a monster in the Cloak of Shadows, irrespective of LOS.

    This spell may be cast on any
    Monster within your line of sight.
    These magical bolts will inflict 2
    Combat Dice of damage, which the
    Monster may defend against by
    rolling 1 Combat Die for each of
    their Mind Points.
Combat dice damage that is defended against is an attack by definition, even if Mind Points are used to figure the number of combat dice.
..
UNCLE ZARGON
Image
WANTS.. YOU


Rewards:
Grin's Stone Map Played a turn in five (5) Play-by-Post games. Created a Hot Topic. Slain a measly Goblin! Slaughtered an Orc! Killed a mighty Fimir! Shattered a Skeleton! Destroyed a Zombie! Unravelled a Mummy!Crushed a powerful Chaos Warrior! Smashed a massive Gargoyle! Encountered all eight (8) Game System monsters. Encountered a menacing Chaos Warlock!
User avatar
Editor-in-Chief
Daedalus
Slacker Ruleslawyer

Wizard
Wizard
 
Posts: 3405
Images: 14
Joined: Monday May 9th, 2011 2:31pm
Forum Language: English (United States)
Evil Sorcerer: Zargon
Usergroups:
Wizards of Zargon Group Member Adventurers' Guild Group Member Artists Group Member Champion Group Member

Previous

Return to Wizards of Morcar

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests