Mind Lock interaction with Mind Blast and Dominate

[Jalapenotrellis]

It says that if you land mind lock, you defend with one die. If you then cast mind lock, mind blast, or dominate, do you then only defend with one die after, or do you still roll based off of your mind point score? Cuz then it makes it a lot easier to Dominate or knock unconscious with the other two spells, or keep the hero locked down with more mind lock. I mean, there already is a pit of chaos that fully turns them evil in the middle. Festral is supposed to be the big boss fight of this expansion. The last two quests have less threat and weaker spell caster (his assistant). I say the last few points because it seems like it could be highly punitive and intended. But cheap.

[Kurgan]

I'm not sure where you're reading from where it says Mind Lock reduces the victim to one die. They roll based on their mind points (which I have up till now assumed meant the mind points they have this turn, as opposed to their starting maximum). Mind Lock is the one that freezes the person, while Mind Blast is the only one that actually inflicts "damage" (to MP).

I would say that yes, the Spells are intended to work together, you're not resetting the person's mind points back to maximum after each turn... if it says your MP are reduced, then they are reduced, and if you have any way of restoring or increasing them, then you get to do that, I believe that's all mentioned in the ATOH quest instructions at the beginning under Mind Points.

The Pit of Chaos thing is a big vague, but it sounds like if they stumble into it they are basically under command for the rest of the game, but you could use your imagination as to how that plays out (is that character really hosed for good? do they get any kind of warning?). The Pit of Chaos thing seems most dangerous if all the bad guy has to do is control the player once and he can march them into it to make them permanently a bad guy (and there's no elixir of life to restore him in the EU rules).

When I do finally play this pack it will be with the modification using the NA rules so it may be different, but I'm curious about those points you raised, maybe I'm not understanding correctly?

[Jalapenotrellis]

So if you read in the ATOH instruction manual explaining the various spells, there's a note at the bottom of Mind Lock that it reduces their defense to 1 die. It's not clear if that's physical defense only or all defense. Considering spellcasters in HeroQuest up to this point tend to get murdered full force before they get any spells off, I'm kinda inclined to make people roll 1 die if I land Mind Lock so I can then Dominate them into the pit. But that just seems a bit rough. But fun for me and not the Heroes, lol.

Edit: You know what? I'm going to make it that way. Make them roll 1 die if I get Mind Lock off. Dominate requires you roll 2 skulls over their defense. That is difficult to do unless they are otherwise first Mind Locked or Mind Blasted.

[Kurgan]

I hadn't thought about it enough, really and I see what you're saying now. "...defend against other attacks using only 1 Defend Die." Thanks for clarifying. He gets to roll more dice (for each Mind Point) to resist the spell, but against other attacks he gets only one defend die.

To remove Mind Lock requires they roll 3 skulls, meaning reducing them to one die for recovery would make it impossible, unless you're giving them just a 50% chance to recover (using the one die).

But using the above info, it would seem that Mind Lock reduces their defense for regular attacks (as opposed to mental attacks or magic that interacts with Mind Points). If it said he was reduced to 1 Mind Point I'd agree with the maximalist interpretation. If that was what was intended they didn't make it very clear after all, but you play how you think is best!

The bad guy freezes the hero with his mind, it's the victim's mind that is frozen, leaving his body weak and barely able to do anything. Normally defend dice are not based on Mind Points. But you're right up until now I had only considered Mind Blast as a subtracter of Mind Points. Something to consider before playing these quests for sure.

I see what you mean about the "trap" though! That would be pretty powerful and weaken the heroes significantly.

Reading more I see that Dominate is explicitly stronger than Command in one respect (it says you can use spells, not just move and attack other heroes).

Back to Mind Lock, if the Chaos Sorcerer isn't just going for the quick kill/conversion... does this mean a Mind Locked Hero could defend with more against mental attacks by the effect of other spells used on him? Potions aren't considered an action (or are a "free action") so could also temporarily affect the "1 die" condition that otherwise just requires time to cure.

Now the real question... if three of the Heroes are turned evil, and yet the Sorcerer is destroyed, does the survivor have to slay his enslaved friends in the bitter climax? The text doesn't really say, but perhaps destroying the ring would release them, then again if the Pit itself is the cause of the control, how could they be freed? (does the Pit get destroyed with the Ring?) Speaking of pits, even under the NA rules I imagine drinking a potion won't save you from falling into a bottomless pit (the other kind of pit)... unless of course it was a stashed Potion of Airwalk (from another quest pack, but still).

So many unanswered questions but a lot of room to use one's imagination. The lone survivor crawls through the last two quests alone... or does he return later (losing his remaining "big potions" but with a new team?

[Jalapenotrellis]

So some of your thoughts are addressed directly in the ATOH manual. If the chaos sorcerer is killed, his spells end immediately.

I would still allow the three skull option to break Mind Lock. I don't see that as defending but more of breaking it early. It's based on current number of mind points, from my interpretation.

If he's having to defend against a Mind attack, be it another Mind Blast, Mind Lock, or Dominate casting, I like the roll 1 die option if they have already been Mind Locked.

But I can also see how I'm wrong in that attacks are different from casting spells. They didn't capitalize Attack like it is an Attack action or something.

Does Mind lock shut down your mind too, or just your body? The name of the spell says "mind," for what it's worth. Realistically speaking, the chances of landing Mind Lock, then landing Dominate or Mind blast after on the same character are lower. Someone will probably die though. The chaos warriors in that room have the stats of ogres, so they likely will not kill them very fast unless they store Sleep in the spell ring to block the door and wail on them. They could also veil of mist or pass through rock to force Festral to change targets to someone else, preventing him from landing multiple Mind spell attacks on the same hero, who is probably going to die that way quickly.

[Kurgan]

You're going to force me to do a dramatic reading of the ATOH Manual... I've missed a lot of details, but I learn them better by saying them out loud.

Very interesting. The Spell Ring is only going to come up with importing from the NA. If the Pit is what causes the conversion to Chaos, then it doesn't end. If we're using NA rules I suppose killing the heroes could be a potential "reset" (they come back with a spell or potion.. the Elixir of Life is good for one use only after all). The heroes don't have a way to destroy mind points, or else one could zap their chaotic friend and reduce him to unconsciousness, and perhaps he'd wake up whole in the next quest?

[Jalapenotrellis]

Oh yes, I am planning to play it as forever. I'm thinking though, if the character runs out of body points, it would either drink a potion and keep fighting, or it will snap out of it... Gaming perspective, they should just kill that character so they can take his loot and give it to a new version of that character in the next quest. But the drawback is that he would be out of potions if you don't allow reset on body point 0 of the evil conversion. I'd probably allow something like Sleeping that char and stealing his potions as an action to make sure he doesn't use all the potions.

There is very little preparation for this for the players. You can throw them all this *lemony goodness* out of left field, or you can let them in on some strategies. I'm more inclined to let them in on the strategy of the Pit of Chaos. This way, they can expect that if one of them gets Dominated (which they won't know about that spell, that's something they're used to, not knowing about spells enemies can cast), they can pass their inventory around to set up one of them to take the death for the team. If you throw it out of left field, I think they would be pissed because nothing in this game has prepared them for such an instant death and take all your stuff scenario. The other unforgiving elements thus far in the game is "Your Borin's armor and Orc's Bane are gone because you searched the tomb. Sorry, that sucks!" We have also had "sorry we took all your gold after being captured." Killing the player and making them lose all their potions might be a little overly punitive. Potions tend to be hard to get. They should probably let whoever is prone to go into the Pit of Chaos have 1-2 of the crappy d6 potions to limit losses but also not cause character death if he just needs to use potions otherwise.