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Flight to the surface question

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from the Against the Ogre Horde Quest Pack.

Re: Flight to the surface question

Postby Pancho » Wednesday June 19th, 2019 10:28am

wallydubbs wrote:This is only because I hate cheap non-deaths that keep a hero trapped forever. He's not dead, but nor can you kill him, it's like a stalemate in chess, where the king is not in check, but nor can he move.

He most certainly is dead. From thirst or starvation. Its not a stalemate, these sort of deaths in Heroquest as just as legitimate as the ones where the Hero gets stabbed repeatly by orcish scimitars.
As Morcar, I take what I can. And seeing the desperate look on a players face as he realises he's trapped forever is actually sweeter than a stabby death :twisted:


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Re: Flight to the surface question

Postby wallydubbs » Wednesday June 19th, 2019 11:18am

Pancho wrote:
wallydubbs wrote:This is only because I hate cheap non-deaths that keep a hero trapped forever. He's not dead, but nor can you kill him, it's like a stalemate in chess, where the king is not in check, but nor can he move.

He most certainly is dead. From thirst or starvation. Its not a stalemate, these sort of deaths in Heroquest as just as legitimate as the ones where the Hero gets stabbed repeatly by orcish scimitars.
As Morcar, I take what I can. And seeing the desperate look on a players face as he realises he's trapped forever is actually sweeter than a stabby death :twisted:


Priceless as the looks may be, it's a really cheap way for the hero to die, especially if a hero just survived the previous 6 grueling quests of Against the Ogre Horde. Much like slipping off the Ice Chasm is Frozen Horror, except this time the hero doesn't fall down a bottomless pit, no this time it's just an impassable square. His companions would sooner stay behind and dig him out, but also they don't have that option.

Maybe I'm just a nice Evil Wizard, but I like my heroes to ha fighting chance.
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Re: Flight to the surface question

Postby Pancho » Wednesday June 19th, 2019 12:22pm

wallydubbs wrote:
Pancho wrote:
wallydubbs wrote:This is only because I hate cheap non-deaths that keep a hero trapped forever. He's not dead, but nor can you kill him, it's like a stalemate in chess, where the king is not in check, but nor can he move.

He most certainly is dead. From thirst or starvation. Its not a stalemate, these sort of deaths in Heroquest as just as legitimate as the ones where the Hero gets stabbed repeatly by orcish scimitars.
As Morcar, I take what I can. And seeing the desperate look on a players face as he realises he's trapped forever is actually sweeter than a stabby death :twisted:


Priceless as the looks may be, it's a really cheap way for the hero to die, especially if a hero just survived the previous 6 grueling quests of Against the Ogre Horde. Much like slipping off the Ice Chasm is Frozen Horror, except this time the hero doesn't fall down a bottomless pit, no this time it's just an impassable square. His companions would sooner stay behind and dig him out, but also they don't have that option.

Maybe I'm just a nice Evil Wizard, but I like my heroes to ha fighting chance.

Well it has to be a fair death. I was talking more generally than the (very) few specific incidences in the official quests where the Hero can die unfairly.
If a Hero meets his end unfairly, or if I’m playing with kids or new players, then I’m pretty nice as the Evil Wizard. But if I’m playing against players who should know better and still get trapped then, then for sure they are dying horribly. It’s especially sweet if it’s a good friend or family member who’s been mocking the wimpiness of my monsters for quest after quest after quest.


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Re: Flight to the surface question

Postby wallydubbs » Wednesday June 19th, 2019 3:57pm

Pancho wrote:Well it has to be a fair death. I was talking more generally than the (very) few specific incidences in the official quests where the Hero can die unfairly.
If a Hero meets his end unfairly, or if I’m playing with kids or new players, then I’m pretty nice as the Evil Wizard. But if I’m playing against players who should know better and still get trapped then, then for sure they are dying horribly. It’s especially sweet if it’s a good friend or family member who’s been mocking the wimpiness of my monsters for quest after quest after quest.

Ah, well I can concur with that. If they deserve it through incompetence or hardheadednessby, all means. In general I like to encourage my heroes to wander off alone or split up the group, it's easier to get some hits in that way. So there's an unspoken promise there, should a falling block trap separate him/her from the rest of the group, they're not automatically dead, I'll always offer a way out unless they do something dramatically stupid.
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Re: Flight to the surface question

Postby Jalapenotrellis » Wednesday June 19th, 2019 10:04pm

But that's part of the game!! It's like when Aeris dies in FFVII! No one likes it, and nothing you can do, but it is part of the game.
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Re: Flight to the surface question

Postby wallydubbs » Thursday June 20th, 2019 12:41pm

Jalapenotrellis wrote:But that's part of the game!! It's like when Aeris dies in FFVII! No one likes it, and nothing you can do, but it is part of the game.

Yes, but that's supposed to happen. The story progresses and his death has ramifications. A carbon copy of Aeris doesn't just start the next game.
I prefer the heroes to live if they can. Although I'm the evil Wizard and technically trying to kill them, I only like to make it challenging to the point that they're only barely surviving.
Yes, I have killed characters before, generally due to poor dice roll. But after the Barbarian is dead we have a new one in the next quest to pick up where the old one left off. The memories are the same and most of the time so is the equipment. So essentially it's the same hero (unless you have new created archetypes to implement upon the death of the old hero).

The point is, if you have 4 heroes that have survived countless incursions together beyond enemy lines, and one of them gets trapped in a room because some rubble blocked the doorway, the other 3 aren't going to just leave him there without trying their damndest to dig him out. But the game's dynamics are not that explicit (although that may or may not be a factor in the mythical Dwarf Quest Pack). But since the heroes don't even have the option to try, I'll give the hero a way out that separates him from the group. Although vulnerable he still has a fighting chance.

Maybe it's a situation where the heroes are being chased and they don't have time to try and dig him out. If they linger it may cost them their lives. It's conceivable that such a situation would happen (Especially in Flight to the Surface), but the heroes would almost certainly come back at a later time when the situation is different, to see if they can still get their friend out. They wouldn't give him up for dead unless they actually saw the killing blow.
Flight to the Surface includes a glimmer of hope at the end of the opening passage: "You must escape and if you can reach the surface you will be able to lead the Emperor's forces against the remains of the Ogre Horde." Odds are, if the heroes make it out they can come back with an army to free their trapped friend.
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Re: Flight to the surface question

Postby Pancho » Thursday June 20th, 2019 1:12pm

You could allow a rule where the other Heroes can dig their trapped comrade out - but at a cost.
Say, 3 body points are expended from the sheer effort needed. The 3BP can be lost by a single Hero who does all the digging, or it can be shared out as a group effort. I think this is fairly realistic because facing monsters after expending all that energy is going to be harder. It will take a number of turns as well, which matters if you’re also using Evil Wizard cards.
This imposes a moral dilemma; should I dig my mate out but then risk dying myself later? Should I let another Character do all the work instead?

Oh, and if they don’t have a tool kit with them, it’s gonna cost them 6 body points...


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Re: Flight to the surface question

Postby lestodante » Friday June 21st, 2019 7:06pm

Or you can make them just waste time trying to remove the rocks, with a dice roll (as for the stone doors but harder). In this case they will be reached by the Ogres coming out and will have to face them while trying to save their friend


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