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Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from the Return of the Witch Lord Quest Pack.

Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Postby Sjeng » Saturday March 9th, 2013 2:18pm

So, we just played the Halls of Vision. We successfully finished it, but there was a raised question about the disappearing doors. I've printed both the US as the Dutch versions of the questbooks, as I noticed that there are many differences, and often when the Dutch version is unclear, the American version is a lot clearer. Here's the quest:
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The Dutch version states the doors simply open when a mummy is killed, which makes no sense at all. So again we used the US map. Also, the Dutch map has no hidden door into the room north of the center.

I've seen the question raised on both BGG as on Old Scratch:

Dirk from Old Scratch wrote:Now my main problem is this: the door that leads into the room marked with B is one of the doors that will disappear when the corresponding mummy is killed. Which implies a potentially unsolvable quest.

The door into the room marked with B will disappear when the mummy is killed. Unless you have a Pass Through Rock spell at hand, there is no way to get into the room. Due to other disappearing doors, it is quite possible that heroes get stuck in rooms without a way to the exit of the quest.

Rick Baptist from BGG wrote:My son and I played this level today and we had a question -- the fourth mummy is guarding the room with the treasure chest and the keys inside. If this mummy is destroyed, thereby removing his door, I don't see another way in. Are we to assume that the heroes lost the adventure by not retrieving the keys? Can they continue without the keys? Obtaining the keys was the stated mission, after all.


Some of the answers were pretty good:
1- I looked it up in the questbook. And you're right, this level design is not really clear. I would say the heroes fail indeed if they cannot reach the keys because the door's gone...
2- Before the 4th Mummy, there are other 3 Mummies whose deaths trigger the same effect. Heroes are supposed to understand that before they reach at the doorstep of Agrain's laboratory.. If they don't.. well.. they lose the mission and the keys!
3- Another way in is made possible by the Elf or Wizard casting the Pass Through Rock spell. A Hero then moves through the wall on his next turn and Searches For Treasure, recovering the keys. That replaces all of the removed doors, allowing him to return through the formerly-vanished door.
4- It does seem to me that there is a mistake made in the positioning of the arrow. If you follow the pattern of the disappearing doors, it shows that the door that disappears should be the door that the hero entered through. Thus the door to Agrains keys is NOT the door that should disappear. It should be the door at the top of the room as Dirk suggested. Except that the upper right mummy room would have no exit if both doors disappeared.
5- It is of course still possible that some the heroes get separated - some get to the end of the quest, and some have to start over. But starting over with less than the full complement of four heroes doesn't seem so bad because when the puzzle is solved correctly, there are hardly any monsters between the heroes and the exit door. That corridor full of monsters is the punishment for not solving the riddle, as it were.

So in the end, I think that there should be a mechanic to allow at least one hero to reach the alchemists bench, and release the other trapped heroes.
I'm partial for this solution:

Answer 4: switch the disappearing door in the last room.
First mummie dies: no problem. You move on to room 2.
Mummie 2: If you stay in the corridor (as we often do) and slay the mummie as it comes at you, the door in front of you vanishes. But there's a hidden door (which may only be found after the door has vanished). The EU version should have this hidden door added to the map. So you can always enter the room even if the mummie dies. No problem here either.
Mummie 3: this is where it gets tricky. The next two rooms present a problem is the mummie is slain from outside of the door. If this one is killed, you're stuck. Game over unless you use pass through rock or the elven cloak of passage. So basically, not only should the mummies be disallowed to leave their respective rooms, they should also keep clear of the doors, so the heroes must enter to attack (if they so choose to). Ergo, the mechanic to make this quest work should be that Morcar/Zargon doesn't allow the mummies to leave their own rooms, and stay away from the square in front of the disappearing doors, forcing any hero that wants to kill them to enter the same room.
Mummie 4: same as 3. If a hero is inside the room with him and kills it, that hero will shut out all the others that are left behind in previous rooms. But the room with the keys is right there, so he can free the rest.
Then you can choose to track back, and take the short route out, or take the secret corridor filled with monsters.

Thoughts?

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Re: Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Postby torilen » Saturday March 9th, 2013 4:55pm

I would agree with that assessment. In fact, I would suggest the following (hope I'm not being redundant - there was a lot to
read through and remember there, sjeng):
numbering the mummy rooms from left to right - 1,2,3, and 4.
Mummy room 1 - change the door that disappears...I see that, if the door labeled now disappears, there is no way
to get to all of the undead in that middle section.
Mummy room 4 - change the door that disappears.

OR - reverse the direction of the secret door in mummy room 4, along with changing the door that disappears.
It would seem that the disappearing doors is trying to funnel the players to the keys, and then the only way
out should be for them to fight their way out through all of the undead in the middle.

That would be my input. |_P cheers.


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Re: Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Postby AerynB » Sunday March 10th, 2013 12:15am

I don't think anything really needs to be changed; it's a very clever quest. The Heroes need to learn something along the way, and secret doors are placed throughout so that the Heroes can always move forward. If the Heroes don't figure out by the third Mummy that destroying them makes a door vanish, well, that's their loss. :twisted: Zargon has so few chances to really beat the Heroes, I like the idea of Zargon winning this time if the Heroes don't figure it out.


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Re: Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Postby Goblin-King » Sunday March 10th, 2013 2:55am

I don't think the arrows are placed wrong. It's way too easy to imagine the heroes being separated. If the 4th arrow pointed up we would have a potential eternal dungeon. With the layout as is someone can at least use pass through rock.

As for Morcar moving the mummies out of the rooms? No Morcar! BAD! Don't be a douche!

And finally. The heroes get two chances to recognize the pattern. And nothing else happens, so it's not like the are being distracted. The next thing that happens is ALSO a freaking mummy and a door.
The heroes SHOULD figure out to stick together at this point. And after all, this IS the second expansion. You'd assume the heroes aren't noobs at this point. And if they are?

THEN THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE ENTERED MY DOMAIN! :gargoyle:


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Re: Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Postby Sjeng » Sunday March 10th, 2013 4:06am

hahaha, well, true that :P

thanks for the input guys.

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Re: Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Postby torilen » Sunday March 10th, 2013 8:19am

I'm not suggesting changing the direction of the arrow(s) on their current doors. I'm suggesting changing the door
that the arrow is on.
But you do have a point - the heroes SHOULD see the pattern by the third room, so they should be able to get the
keys. However, something still needs to be changed...the secret door in mummy room 4. It needs to be reversed
in direction. As it stand right now, it opens INTO the mummy room, which, the way the rules read...and the way
all other secret doors have worked thus far, they would need to be in the middle hallway in order to find it. Correct?
If they can't find that secret door...they will have no way to get to the exit door for this quest, as killing the first
mummy encountered will have made a very important door disappear.

Or, does it not matter which way the secret door opens? Am I interpreting things wrong?


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Re: Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Postby Goblin-King » Sunday March 10th, 2013 8:37am

We've always played that secret doors can be found from either side. Which way the graphic/tile points doesn't matter. But this is an interesting question.


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Re: Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Postby Sjeng » Sunday March 10th, 2013 11:15am

Goblin-King wrote:We've always played that secret doors can be found from either side. Which way the graphic/tile points doesn't matter. But this is an interesting question.

Same here. In my rulebook there's nothing about the direction of secret doors. you can find them from either side.

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Re: Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Postby AerynB » Sunday March 10th, 2013 11:53am

Me too. Doesn't matter what side of the wall the secret door picture is on, a Hero who searches either side of the wall can find it.


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Re: Quest 4: the Halls of Vision

Postby Daedalus » Monday March 11th, 2013 2:35pm

The subject of which side a secret door is found was discussed earlier in this thread:
http://www.yeoldeinn.com/hqforum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=884&hilit=secret+door+direction

@Sjeng-

Garygnu wrote:3- Another way in is made possible by the Elf or Wizard casting the Pass Through Rock spell. A Hero then moves through the wall on his next turn and Searches For Treasure, recovering the keys. That replaces all of the removed doors, allowing him to return through the formerly-vanished door.

This one sounds particularly insightful. :mrgreen: :arrow: :chaoswarrior:
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