Kellar's Keep... so hard to get through...

[drathe]

I don't know about anyone else, but I find KK very hard to get through. I'm not talking difficulty here, I'm saying it's such a drag compared to other quest packs, even compared to the Game System.

I just played some Heroes through KK for my forth or fifth time. I find it takes so long and there isn't much interesting going on in the pack. Much of the pack is going from point A to point B with nothing new or interesting going on in between. All the cool stuff seems to be packed into two to three quests, most are at the very end. In comparison, Return of the Witch Lord has something different in eight or nine of the ten quests. Sure, you find some map pieces in KK, but they aren't really of any value, even if they do show the basic layout of the final quest. No additional clues are given on it.

If I remember next time, I'm going to throw in some of my own ideas for new tricks and monsters when I play through KK again. It just needs something more.

[AerynB]

Just started KK with Dave. He said he enjoyed it, but he says he's looking forward to a quest pack with new or different characters/monsters. I've tried telling him we won't get any new monsters for 20 more quests, but I think he keeps forgetting. But maybe I could use some of the DnD minis I bought for a few of the boss-like monsters instead of the Chaos Warlock figure. Hmm... *peruses KK quest book* Well... The Fimir in Quest 4 (The Dwarven Forge) knows a spell... I could use a DnD monster for him mayhaps. Quest 5 (The Hall of Dwarven Kings) has the stronger skeleton monsters, I could use different monsters for them. There's a Chaos Warlock in Quest 6 (The Great Citadel), I could definitely make a different character for him. There's an Orc Captain in Quest 7 (The Eastern Passage) and you're supposed to use the special orc with the notched sword, but I could always use a scarier looking orc. Nobody special in Quest 8 (Belorn's Mine) except the gargoyle, but I like using that figure; it's already big and scary enough. Quest 9 (The East Gate) has the shape-shifter, which probably shouldn't be a special mini because it cycles through all the various monsters, but the Chaos Warlock Borokk could be a special guy. And nothing really special in the last quest (Grin's Crag) except for the special guardian gargoyle, which, like I said before, I probably won't change because I already like the gargoyle figure.

Hmm... now that I've glanced over the quests, it's not too bad of a pack. Yes, it's mostly going from point A to point B and looting all the rooms for treasure, but there are some interesting traps, monsters and story. Like, in the Hall of Dwarven Kings, you sorta get to learn about the, uh, old Dwarven Kings. And the quest before that (The Dwarven Forge) is a neat little room that pretty much only the Dwarf can walk through (unless you have the Fire Ring, of course). As a matter of fact, this could almost be considered the Dwarf Quest Pack... Wonder which one would be a good Wizard Quest Pack... maybe the Wizards of Zargon... *shrugs*

I also kinda like how the rooms and corridors are arranged in this pack. For instance, corridors seem to be much shorter than corridors in the main system. And some corridors become little treasure rooms or small graves. Anyhoo, it's kinda clever.

Hopefully it'll still hold Dave's interest for 9 more quests. We'll see how it goes.

[drathe]

Game Mastering the Quest once or twice isn't that bad. But after many times through it, it's just not the same as a pack like Witch Lord. Hopefully you'll both enjoy it.

[AerynB]

Had to read that once or twice... "Game Mastering" ... now I get it. Running the game can be tedious. *nods* I can imagine it becoming monotonous for Zargon after a couple times through it.

[HeroQuestFrance]

As I previously said, it's very hard to play against the ogre horde, kellar keep & return of the witch lord.
Your heroes aren't supposed to enter in point A, go out with point B and buy things.
No no no. They enter a cavern maze and walk deeply.
There is no turning back to town and gold amount looks useless here.
They have to survive in each quest with what they have and found on their way.
It's terrible terrific and stressing. It's enough.

That's the way we play those quests here.

[drathe]

As I previously said, it's very hard to play against the ogre horde, kellar keep & return of the witch lord.
Your heroes aren't supposed to enter in point A, go out with point B and buy things.

I've only seen this rule in Against the Ogre Horde and it's listed as an optional way to play with additional rules. Although the French version may very well be different in this respect.

[Big Bene]

It's not stated expicitely in the NA or German version (don't know about french one), but as you don't go "upstairs" but just enter a new part of the dungeon through a door, I always took it for granted that vitits to the armory are not possible.

[Thrawn]

Having run through the sets of quests twice (and preparing for my 3rd HQ campaign as Zargon), I always found KK to be the low point running as well. I don't think the original set was well done, but the early quests at least offer a significant challenge to heroes, and the full set has advancement as they buy equipment and find artifacts. For KK, I think some of it drags on for the heroes as they are pretty stagnant, and for Zargon, this set of quests offered the least challenging period of the heroes' careers. (RotWL isn't that much better for challenges actually.)

For my third time through, I'm looking to shake things up a bit more so that characters see some advancement at least by the end, and so that I have some more interesting scenarios to play through. I think the introduction of more WHFB orc variations will help a bit here. There is so much orc and goblin background that hasn't been utilized from biguns to black orcs, to fanatics, to wolf and spider riders.

[cynthialee]

I have looked it over a few times. I have never had the chance to run it but it occurs to me that a simple way to make it more chalenging and fun is to have each dungeon that you have to get to the other side require that the heroes find a set of three keys to activate the next door. Have each of the three keys in possesstion of one of the more powerful monsters. That forces them to go room by room looking for keys.
Add in some extra monsters and/or traps and its golden.

[Goblin-King]

I'm inclined to disagree with you on that one cynthialee.
in my opinion the worst kind of quest is "collect the keys". You fought your way through the dungeon and finally find the exit door. Then have to backtrack to find keys.